Feedback needed - Weapons, Basic

  • Aeria themselves sometimes hosts OS tournie events.

    Stuff like that is what I was talking about. Treating it as official mode even though it is inferior weapon limit is what made it preferred mode for a lot of ppl over the years. Why play against all weapons when you can play with less and gain the same?

  • Stuff like that is what I was talking about. Treating it as official mode even though it is inferior weapon limit is what made it preferred mode for a lot of ppl over the years. Why play against all weapons when you can play with less and gain the same?

    It is an official mode, has been for years. Even though there's no guns involved in Os, it doesn't make it easier to play though. I've seen gunners come in and get squashed, and then they play the "I play guns" card. I've also seen Sworders get destroyed in Unlimited and play the "I'm a Sworder card". The truth is, even though it's "Unlimited mode" you see many more guns than you do swords. No one plays Guns only mode because of this, because players even refer to Unlimited sometimes as "Guns". Seeing a full Gunner type player in Unlimited is much more common than seeing a full Sworder type, and that's because guns will always be more viable in unlimited due to their range advantage (which tbh is how it should be, even in real life guns win vs melee). There's something fresh about playing both modes, because they both offer different experiences. But I realize now that arguing my points will be pointless, as in the end everything is a matter of opinion.


    What if OS Tournie prizes could only be Melee related things? Like Melee weapon or OS limited skill of choice? Would that be so bad?


    B3mo & Hella_Hell I'm sorry that I was harsh today.

  • It is an official mode, has been for years. Even though there's no guns involved in Os, it doesn't make it easier to play though. I've seen gunners come in and get squashed, and then they play the "I play guns" card. I've also seen Sworders get destroyed in Unlimited and play the "I'm a Sworder card". The truth is, even though it's "Unlimited mode" you see many more guns than you do swords. No one plays Guns only mode because of this, because players even refer to Unlimited sometimes as "Guns". Seeing a full Gunner type player in Unlimited is much more common than seeing a full Sworder type, and that's because guns will always be more viable in unlimited due to their range advantage (which tbh is how it should be, even in real life guns win vs melee). There's something fresh about playing both modes, because they both offer different experiences. But I realize now that arguing my points will be pointless, as in the end everything is a matter of opinion.


    What if OS Tournie prizes could only be Melee related things? Like Melee weapon or OS limited skill of choice? Would that be so bad?


    B3mo & Hella_Hell I'm sorry that I was harsh today.

    So why is there no Guns only tournament? Or Chaser limit tournament? Those are also "official" modes, right?

    Are those less official or the only reason we have SO tournaments is cuz all the gun players have left long ago and no one would apply unless it is SO mode since has enough players?

  • So why is there no Guns only tournament? Or Chaser limit tournament? Those are also "official" modes, right?

    Are those less official or the only reason we have SO tournaments is cuz all the gun players have left long ago and no one would apply unless it is SO mode since has enough players?

    Fazoodle wrote:


    The truth is, even though it's "Unlimited mode" you see many more guns than you do swords. No one plays Guns only mode because of this, because players even refer to Unlimited sometimes as "Guns". Seeing a full Gunner type player in Unlimited is much more common than seeing a full Sworder type.

    ^ My answer to why there's no Gun only tournies, as Unlimited mode is already mostly Guns.


    As for Chaser only mode, it could have something to do with that particular mode being too one sided. With the banning of walls, there's not much the player can do to avoid the chasers shots, (as Chaser bullets do huge damage). But adding walls back in would just result in the Chaser being put in a serious disadvantage. Putting Mind Shock back in on top of that would help the Chaser out a little, but we know that players would put walls up in obvious positions to keep the Chaser just far enough away from hitting them with the Mind Shock. But right now it's one sided to the Chaser since all players can just equip rail and infinity knock back the chaser. I don't think there's no good way to balance Chaser limit mode.


    Edit: I forgot also, the players would take heals in order to counter the Mind Shock wall pierce as well. So they could re-make the walls without dying, and then they'd use that mk2 heal shot to give the wallers sp back.

  • guys, it's nice to read all those arguments but we still prefer reading only weapon related feedback what you for yourself would be fitting. If it turns into a discussion please make a separate thread, since we prefer having it organized to look back on the given feedback especially because we'll spend a lot of time reading for the next days

  • Ofc Heiliger we should, there are already a lot of thread about guns vs Os etc.. ([GUN/OS] Balance weapons, ...)


    However, I don't think we can really talk about the weapons, the balance of the weapons etc.. without thinking of how it will impact the players. Nerfing the Breaker can be a good idea for OS Players but a bad idea in Unlimited mode.. So we're forced to introduce a debate about gun vs Sword. Like Mercure did, he only voices his opinion on the way he wants the game to be to improve its experience, and how to improve the game, but the balance (which I think is incredibly correct) he gives is mostly for OS Player. He said it won't affect that much Unlimited Player but it will (look at the CS, it wasn't so broken for Unlimited Players but it sure was in OS Mode). You can't just change weapon damages, stat, attacks, etc.. by taking care of the 2 Modes.

    And only by voicing his opinion raises this debate. The consequences are different for each modes.

  • You use swords to run? Why you have HG? Anyway wanna talk stats? How bout a Blue F Fist cager whacking you for 30 damage (more than 40 with whale enchants & def pierce) who prevents you from even firing any gun while s/he does so? With his/her unhindered cage speed they'd also be hard for other people to aim at properly. How bout infinite TB light combo? It's pretty effective vs Airhug and HMG players, prevents them from firing. Not to mention they can zip around the map with the ball with that combo without any hindrance. Since OS is stupid according to you guys, CS should be removed, as no one should play OS right? Who uses CS in unlimited where everyone uses guns, making revenge useless? Sigma has the Blue Flash bug which is something only possible in Unlimited. Why use PS stun in Unlimited when you can BR stun + Swing for over 100 damage? (Br stun has the same animation time as PS stun btw), but oh right BR is a melee weapon, I should of said Nell. Even in Unlimited, no sword should be "better" than another to use. How do you fix this? *Cough*BALANCE SWORDS TO OTHER SWORDS.*Cough*


    OS mode requires a different mindset compared to Unlimited. There you don't keep distance, you must get close and personal. Positioning is key, while the positioning thing is also true for Unlimited, you must more often risk opening yourself up to attack in OS. Where with guns you can just WS. Or if you're legit shoot then get cover. The two are much different from each other.

    I honestly don't know what the first part of this post here should be but well. Depending on the kind of situation and the weapons I actually use I run with swords yes. There is no solution to everything and every situation in this game. Sword only isn't stupid but well most of the community is (the emphasis is on "most"). And as long as the votekick is in game I honestly don't think that a weapon balance is going to change the weapon limit rooms. Why? Because people always take the easiest way (I guess thats what human beings are, can't really blame em for that).


    Well to the second part. What you are writing is actually not wrong. I already wrote something about it in the old forum in my "beginner channel thread" if you maybe were active at this time. Sword Only mode is actually really slow paced against unlimited. And that is in my opinion the most attractive part of it. You don't have to react so fast on different situations. Don't have to care about taking damage on long range and can wait longer for better opportunities.


    And again because you did not react at all to my stats balance. How about you try out to play with Pen (S5) stats in sword only mode in a regular room? I mean it just try it and give a honest feedback about it. Don't wanna proof my point or anything else here. I'm just curious how good you would do.


    And at last I don't give feedback here. As I mentioned considering all the factors nowadays I don't see the point and the least for me. I'm running around with pen stats (S5) in every room (hell I couldn't give a proper feedback at all). Not because I want to show off or anything. I limit myself with these stats and yeah I actually play better without forcepack items then with. Idk why. Just feels right for me.

  • Well, i dont want the old rail gun because for me is really boring, but anyway


    Railgun - [Balance]

    More damage but only when is fully charged, like 200 hp.

    remove toss

    remove reduce movement speed.

    Increase the charge time


    Yes, it's a one shot weapon.

  • !!!!PLEASE LOOK AT THE VIDEO!!!!



    It's nice vid but you forgot Dagger infinite stabbing. Where you press hold any WASD key and spam right click. The method remove all cool down giving it infinite stabbing. Not sure if a bug or way it intended like all others.


    I cant believe what I'm reading..people complaining about TB..TB..and broken?

    Oh boy if TB was broken then I be seeing more people abusing it, but sadly it not. Not even meta too.


    If I have to choose who would win between infinite light TB vs Infinite stabbing. Of course it Dagger will always win. We all know who is really broken. Don't really need to point that all out.


    Comparison is so high with Fist. SP type weapon get punish using thier special move or attack, but all except dagger. It really amazing it was hiding under the radar for so long. The only reason why people turn a blind eye on it because it was one of original what that first came out. Guess some people still giving it royal treatment.


    Maybe this time Dagger finally get a stab. Anyway I'm done talking with this .


    *eat popcorn* Who want some?

  • Hi, i thought i'm gonna make some suggestions regarding some weapons and about one skill. I'm sure that some people mentioned some weapon rebalance/buffs in this thread, already. But well everyone has a different opinion about that.

    Weapon : Boots (Nerf)
    Reason: Boots shouldn't be the fastest weapon in unlimited, and also in DM it's, way too strong in combination with exo scythe / breaker.
    Suggestion: Reduce the speed of this weapon, and also the critical dmg of this weapon. You could maybe add the old boots combination to make boots more attractiv again.

    Weapon: Railgun. (Nerf)
    Reason: The snipe weapon was already annoying enough back in the old days. Nowdays if you play Chaser unlimited, it's impossible to get out of the snipe spam.
    Suggestion: Decrease the hitbox and remove the push back from the left click / slow down effect.


    Weapon : Mind Shock / Mind Energy (Nerf)

    Reason: In 2011 both weapons were not that much overpowered. I'm talking about the attack speed of these weapons. Too fast, not competitive and the speed is not really fitting for a weapon with unlimited ammo.
    Suggestion: Give Mind Shock and Mind Energy the old attack speed, OR make it with limited ammo like it has in arcade.


    Weapon : Gauss Rifle the regular one, not the MK version. (Nerf)

    Reason : This weapon is too strong. Sure the spray is really annoying and it's pretty hard to aim with it. But I did the expierience that i can 1 or 2hit with that weapon. It doesn't matter where i stay. The range dmg is always the same for me, (probably because i have max dmg / crit enchants and red esper chips on my set)

    Suggestion: Gauss Rifle should do less dmg with critical, since it's to op from distance, but again this depends on the user of this weapon.

    Weapon : Mine Gun (Nerf)

    Reason : I collected a lot of expirience. with playing mine gun as my main build in several s5 tournaments and clanwars over the years, so i think i can give a good suggestion for this weapon.

    Suggestion: Mine Gun Bombs shouldn't explode faster, they should be able to make some dmg on your team mates. I mean it's a explosive bomb right? Why is mine gun not doing any dmg to your team mates like the earth or light bomb does?

    Other suggestions which came into my mind when i started to think about rebalancing things.
    ( i know that's only a weapon feedback thread, but it's still a suggestion :) )
    Buff : Metallic (Balance)
    Reason: This Skill should actually reflect the DMG for a period of time while ur inside in metallic.
    Well however, the metallic skill cannot reflect the eSper level 5 skills. (Red & Orange Esper) You can kill the player with the red esper chip, and the orange one is just stealing the whole SP. The same thing with the MK2 Bomb, it's stealing the whole SP, shouldn't it reflect the dmg and ignore the effect of sp consuming?

  • What does it change if your plasma sword loses 5 damage if you're only using it to stun / dash or if the breaker does less damage.

    And if CS looses stun? CS's revenge stance is exclusively set the way it is because people can shoot it. Same with all melee, their damage outputs are higher due to the nature of closeness. To set up balance, the closeness factor would have to be reduced, thus could eventually break the mode depending on how balances from that viewpoint work.

    If anything from the sound of it Unlimited gets the special treatment, and OS gets the attention.

    Unlimited includes all weapons, meaning it is the best way to balance all weapons. You asking for mode specific edits is the definition of special treatment. If that mode is in need of special conditions to work, then that means it shouldn't be there.

    Who uses CS in unlimited where everyone uses guns, making revenge useless?

    Since UNLIMITED includes all weapons including swords, it is not worthless.

    TB was broken then I be seeing more people abusing it, but sadly it not. Not even meta too.

    TB actually has some interesting meta capacities as far as minor utility movement, the thing is, most people don't really care to use them. For instance, the jump attack slightly raises the player up, meaning that people can get a slight bit higher with basic jumps but 180'ing and jumping backwards. This can be helpful on station 2's stairs and jumping over people slightly higher up than you. It is a weird thing to get used to, but can be useful when you do.


    Though, as far as attacks go, it does kinda pale in comparison to it's cousin the breaker.

  • Other suggestions which came into my mind when i started to think about rebalancing things.

    ( i know that's only a weapon feedback thread, but it's still a suggestion :) )
    Buff : Metallic (Balance)
    Reason: This Skill should actually reflect the DMG for a period of time while ur inside in metallic.
    Well however, the metallic skill cannot reflect the eSper level 5 skills. (Red & Orange Esper) You can kill the player with the red esper chip, and the orange one is just stealing the whole SP. The same thing with the MK2 Bomb, it's stealing the whole SP, shouldn't it reflect the dmg and ignore the effect of sp consuming?

    About Metallic: making it so players can't use F while they're in Metallic state would be nice. I've witnessed people going metal to lure people in, just so they could red F them when they got close enough. Green F allows you to use Metallic without any drawbacks.

  • This is from the view of someone playing this game in pen clothes since 2009 (like an on off relationship). First playing unlimited but switched to OS because of the huge gap of damage followed by stats. (if you can sometimes kill someone without being touched is better than getting strays and dying while hitting way more bullets with the same weapon)



    1. Weapon: Spy Dagger [nerf/balance]
    Left click: Either remove most of the damage and let it be a tool to disrupt enemys (like it already is... while still killing) or reduce the big hitbox, so it has to be aimed more carefuly.


    Right click two different solutions:


    -Remove the high damage and the huge hitbox, but give it a longer dash and let it kind of paralyze the hit enemy. With a cooldown so you could move faster than the hit target, but if he evades, being able to move again.

    OR

    -Remove the huge hitbox, reduce the long dash range and give it a single, strong hit, but with a bigger cooldown (perhaps only criticals from behind)


    Reason:

    You are fast as hell with the dagger and have the potential to kill several enemys at the same time at a long range while canceling them. The dagger should be a high risk, high reward weapon. Use it correctly and you can disrupt enemys out of their mind (solution one) or punish those, that get too close and are not able to move while still having the utility of speed and the disruption. Give it clear strong uses but also enough drawbacks to justify the strong points.


    2. Weapon: Stormbat [nerf/balance]

    Jump Attack: Give clear vision of when you hit and why you hit. Give a clear indicator of the range from the attack. Remove some of the range. Slower the attack. Make the cooldown between jump attacks longer, but a normal attack after a Jump attack should be faster.



    Reason:

    Sometimes it feels really wonky to use the bat. It is my main choice of killing players but sometimes I hit them when I shouldn't have (sometimes it doesn't hit while being right on top of them). The jump attack is fine from behind or if others have enough sp (they kill you with the dagger after evading) but it doesn't feel rewarding at all. If you hit someone with it, you should be able to use that small frame to give them another swing with it, but you should NOT be able to just do another jump attack again. This is why the speed counter needs to be removed from it. If someone got sp and evades, fine, but if you hit the carrier, he just jumps over your head and goes his way or kills you. It should be difficult to hit a moving target but if you hit, make it rewarding so that you can either swing another one at him, or do nothing but not being able to jump attack again without the target being able to react, which means you need to recover at the same time. You had your hit and your damage, and now it's even again, or you had your hit and swung him back.


    3. Weapon: Plasma Sword: [nerf/balance]

    Dash Attack: Remove the possibilty to one hit with it and clean the collition hit box.

    Jump Attack: Do something against the possibilty to endlessly stun a target. Give it a Cooldown after being used twice or thrice in a row or let it use up a big amount of SP. Clean the hitbox of it. The stun duration should be equal no matter the distance of the target that got hit.



    Reason:

    The hitboxes sometimes feel off and wrong. Sometimes you clearly hit someone with the dash, but don't stop and the first hits come while being inside the target and sometimes you hit the target far away and are a sitting duck still in the animation. The dash is a gap closer used to hold the target with you for long enough to give him a strong cut. It should not be able to kill a healthy player. And it is confusing. Sometimes a player is getting hit but still moves along for some time or gets the stumble after his animation and sometimes everything is cut and he is stopped dead in his tracks where he got the first hit.

    The jump attack is a strong tool but feels off, too. Sometimes enemies get stunned way in the distance and sometimes you do the attack infront of a non lagging player and he walks past you. I think this happens most of the time, when the stun is used in the air. What I mean is, that you don't slam the sword into the ground like it should, but instead the animation is over while being in the air (dunno if that is really the case). And consecutive stuns should be a last resort and be punishing. Either you lose the ability to stun for a time, or you do that and have no sp on top of it ( I can think it only affects players without massive sp pools, but hey, it's an idea)



    4. Weapon: Counter-Sword [balance]

    Counter: Change the mechanic completely. Make a timed counter move. If you use it and time it correctly aimed against an attack, let the aggressor not be stunned, but tumbled backwards and open for an attack. Give the cs the possibilty to attack before the enemy can recover or to change the weapon while the enemy recovers or let it chain into weapon switches with fast, not that leathel weapon attacks.


    Reason:

    Turtling with the cs is not countering. Make it fun and rewarding for both players. One for getting the timing against an attack and the other for baiting the counter and being able to attack instead. It also removes the wallsliding. Giving the player the ability to really counter an enemy instead of turtling against an onslaught of right clicked dagger dashes should be way more fun. The cs is a solid weapon with moderate damage and good mobility. It isn't really meant for killing, so the counter gives it a nice risky but rewarding twist. The comet is another thing. Either it is removed with the change or a combo between the counter and ps dash. But if you don't hit your counter, you are open to attack.



    5. Weapon: Breaker [balance]

    Jump attack: Make the attack slower, give it more cooldown, but let it combo faster into a normal attack. Remove the knockback and turn it into a stumble.

    Normal attack: Make it slower with great knockback, but let it combo faster after a Jump attack.


    Reason:

    The breaker is a massive hammer but never feels like it except for the charge attack. It should not be able to be used as a spam weapon pushing peoble around. The change from a knockback to a stumble with the jump attack should be so you can swipe the hit targets away with a chained normal attack. That's why the attack should be slower. It is a massive area disrupting weapon that does deal damage, so it should be harder to land. So is the normal attack. This weapon should be heavy, somewhat clunky but massively rewarding if hit on multiple targets.


    6. Weapon: Twin Blades [balance]

    Combo Attack: Let it chain faster.

    Charge Attack: The longer you charge, the more sp are drained. Without sp the charge breaks and you stumble, not activating the attack at all. But the attack won't get stronger after charging for a certain amount. If it hits directly after being charged to full, it does more damage. You can release the charge and get back half the amount of "used" charge (Means it is a set amount. Half the Sp used to fully charge the attack).



    Reason:

    I'm somewhat at a loss with the twin blades. I love them and use them whenever I can, but I don't know what to change to make it viable and fun without being frustrating for the enemys. The jumpf attack is somewhat too fast, but slower and you would get overrun even after hitting. The combo is useless because every weapon attacks faster after being hit from the first attack, than the important second hit (it gets to a "who clicks faster" if you hit someone first, because the tb first attack is insanely fast at close range, but the second is... so slow it never hits in a duel if the other one just spamclicks), but if you let it chain faster and hit someone first, you get your guaranteed second hit which allows you to switch weapons and do strong, killing attacks all the time. And the charge attack feels not special and too easy. But these are the only changes, that could make it more reasonable to use. You have to time it, to really do damage and you have to time it, not to be left without any more sp, I kinda like this idea.



    So, those are my thoughts about the weapons I know in and out. And again: I use Pen clothing and my strongest weapon is a Twin blade with +3%, so I can't say anything about numbers in detail. I feel that some weapons deal too much damag or some are close to fine, but even as Pen user I am able to kill full premium players with those weapons, so I don't think the numbers are too low. The damage balance is a whole nother can of worms.


    I could only say things about the weapons I have used many times or watched closely for a long period of time.



    And an afterthought, that came to mind while writing about stuns:


    7. Basic skill: Evading while being stunned or tumbled [nerf]

    Change the set amount of used SP to a percentage of max SP


    Reason:

    It is fun to be able to jump around, do chains of wall jumps and stuff, but you shouldn't be able to do both that and still being able to evade twice out of a solid stun or tumble. To counter the massive sp pools of some players while still letting them jump around like loonatics but giving them a real punishment for being caught in a stun, evading out of it should use a percentage of the max SP. If you do that, you can work on changing stuns and tumbles if needed. Make them more costly or something like that, because then they would be rewarding again.


    Yeah... wanted to go to sleep 3 hours ago... then I spotted this thread... thanks I guess :D

    Have fun,

    Tasja


    P.S.: Awww, come on. I can't post it because I got a censored word in this text twice? "gets - this exist only to seperate the two words <- this "s" caused the same problem - hit" Because it could be, that I would use those two words with malice, because the last letter of "gets" and the word "hit" could mean fecies xD Had to say that... well thanks for editor and search funktion

    But really. I'm a guy.


    Have a nice day.

  • 2. Weapon: Stormbat [nerf/balance]

    Jump Attack: Give clear vision of when you hit and why you hit. Give a clear indicator of the range from the attack. Remove some of the range. Slower the attack. Make the cooldown between jump attacks longer, but a normal attack after a Jump attack should be faster.


    Reason:

    Sometimes it feels really wonky to use the bat. It is my main choice of killing players but sometimes I hit them when I shouldn't have (sometimes it doesn't hit while being right on top of them). The jump attack is fine from behind or if others have enough sp (they kill you with the dagger after evading) but it doesn't feel rewardingat all. If you hit someone with it, you should be able to use that small frame to give them another swing with it, but you should NOT be able to just do another jump attack again. This is why the speed counter needs to be removed from it. If someone got sp and evades, fine, but if you hit the carrier, he just jumps over your head and goes his way or kills you. It should be difficult to hit a moving target but if you hit, make it rewarding so that you can either swing another one at him, or do nothing but not being able to jump attack again without the target being able to react, which means you need to recover at the same time. You had your hit and your damage, and now it's even again, or you had your hit and swung him back.

    I agree with everything save for this little bit right here. You can't chain another Bat Jump instantly without waiting through the delay normally. You can only speed counter if they stagger you or knock you away during your delay, but you can speed counter with any other melee weapon in the game. So why take it away from one of the weapons it feels most rewarding with? It takes proper timing and aim to get a critical every time with the Bat Jump, and it loses to Dagger/Ps dash counters and Fist right click. All one has to do is Space+Dodge as soon as it hits them while right click holding to beat it.

  • kill several enemys at the same time at a long range while canceling them

    I honestly don't understand people saying this about the dagger. To kill 1 person in the daggers stab, the last 2 hits are absolutely necessary, possibly all 3 dependent on the enemy. Also, I very rarely seeing it killing multiple people at the same time unless they are huddled stupidly close together.

    Do something against the possibilty to endlessly stun a target.

    They did, you can dodge out of it.

    Counter: Change the mechanic completely. Make a timed counter move. If you use it and time it correctly aimed against an attack, let the aggressor not be stunned, but tumbled backwards and open for an attack.

    No. CS blocks most attacks that are easily spammed/spammy. Almost every weapon (Melee) has a direct counter to it. As far as timing goes, lag beats timing 100%. Forcing it to a time limit means the possibility of the user dying despite "Using it correctly"


    Revenge slows the user at a cost of having a one way defense from some attacks. The slowness of the user makes up for that defense.

  • Yes but sometimes it doesn't do that much dmg. I believe it depends where you stay when lightning bomb is exploding

    ^ This. The further you are away from the center of its explosion the more damage it does. (Max damage at its outer rim), and that includes vertical distance from the center. The Earth bomber is the opposite which is why it's so weak in comparison. Lightning is more punishable for you for trying to dodge out of it. Maybe Earth Bomber should stun to make up for its tiny max damage zone. :^) (Just kidding ofc).


    Edit: I do think something should be done for the Earth Bomber, as there's no reason to take it when you could just use either Lightning variants (which are both better). Since Earth only does its max damage in its center, it's much too easy to escape it hardly scratched. While the Lightning Varients deal random damage no matter where you are in its radius, (with both having added slow effects). You shouldn't have to take bind just to possibly get max damage. (Which you still may not because if the bound person jumps at the right time, they're leaving the max damage zone vertically).


    Edit2: I stand corrected, Lightning indeed does do random damage from no matter where you are in the range, but it seems to do high damage more often than low, but then again that could just be luck.

    The post was edited 5 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • I agree with everything save for this little bit right here. You can't chain another Bat Jump instantly without waiting through the delay normally. You can only speed counter if they stagger you or knock you away during your delay, but you can speed counter with any other melee weapon in the game. So why take it away from one of the weapons it feels most rewarding with? It takes proper timing and aim to get a critical every time with the Bat Jump, and it loses to Dagger/Ps dash counters and Fist right click. All one has to do is Space+Dodge as soon as it hits them while right click holding to beat it.

    I didn't mean to tage away the stagger effect from the bat, but I want to make it more fun. Not to jump attack again at a target already helpless from that attack and still being helpless, if he doesn't have enough SP. It IS the bread and butter of the bat atm and I do it all the time. What I say is, to change it up a bit. If the one dodges out of the stagger, thats fine. The SP penalty is high (not high enough with current sp pools of most people) and that's why the one giving up much sp gets to counter attack, while the other one is still in the delay. But if that one doesn't or can't dodge out of it, the most someone should be able to add, is a hefty swing to the face, though. So you use more than just one attack with the bat. That's my thought about it.

    I honestly don't understand people saying this about the dagger. To kill 1 person in the daggers stab, the last 2 hits are absolutely necessary, possibly all 3 dependent on the enemy. Also, I very rarely seeing it killing multiple people at the same time unless they are huddled stupidly close together.

    I've been 2 hit by the left click and have been 1 hit by the last any of the 3 hits the right click does. I do have less stats than most other players, but it kinda feels bad, if he's (random text, because the "s" from "he's" and the "hit" from hitting intermingle so great) hitting someone right in front of him, behind him another one and me next to them. Yeah, don't stack up, if you don't want to be hit at the same time, and it surely feels great for the dude, that killed 2 of 3 people with one attack and the next one while holding down RMB. I don't think that weapon is fun like it is and I gave examples of how I think, it could be more fun for either person in a fight. If he manages to get close to you and really stab deep in your back, he deserves to deal massive damage. But I think that the dagger has so many uses and advantages on top of the damage, that it is not a balanced weapon in comparison to any other melee weapon. And I want to like a weapon that gives you utility. Movement speed is a powerful weapon in melee combat, so why should it also be able to effortlessly kill that competent?

    xxXSatanic_AbyssXxx wrote:

    They did, you can dodge out of it.

    You can dodge out of it with enough sp and that is fine. But again, my point of view would be to change something up. Stun should be a powerful weapon, draining the enemy of a hefty amount of sp. For a carrier this is a death sentence and that is fine. If you get cought in a stun, it should be punishing and should make you anxious about getting close again, but what is more fun? Being able to counter play. My aim was to give every weapon a clearly positive attribute while having other ways to counter it. You could be faster and use a dagger to interrupt the stun (which is the thing most people do) but when was it fun to spam a certain attack over and over? I'm kinda rambling now... I would like to be rewarded for using a powerful weapon right (for that,... there should be a change with the needed sp to dodge out of a stun or stagger, like described in my previous post). I can dream, can I?

    xxXSatanic_AbyssXxx wrote:

    No. CS blocks most attacks that are easily spammed/spammy. Almost every weapon (Melee) has a direct counter to it. As far as timing goes, lag beats timing 100%. Forcing it to a time limit means the possibility of the user dying despite "Using it correctly"


    Revenge slows the user at a cost of having a one way defense from some attacks. The slowness of the user makes up for that defense.

    That was a consideration I had, but thought about what would happen, if the new devs really really get to work and update S4, so aaaaaaall the random BS happening does stop, or at least are going back to bugs again instead of being integral gameplay like the "Oh, he wasn't there anymore, but I hit him anyway" and the "Why did I hit him, kill him and be stunned afterwards, oh that's just S4, it happens all the time" and the "Wow, I hit that? Some strange hitboxes going on". If those are removed and you hit when you hit, you get hit when you get hit, then this change would be awesome and feel great to pull of. And if you pull it of, not only do you get a free counter attack (if no one interrupts) but you will make the enemy wary of your CS and make him hesitate more, or he stays stupid and gives you free oppurtunitys to do it again. And yeah, many weapons do have a counter attack against it, most of them are jump attacks and telegraphed pretty obviously. You don't have to put up the guard all the time, so you can dodge them and most of those counter attacks, if used and missed, give oppurtinitys to strike yourself. I think that would be fine.


    Of course, I'm no programmer doing weapon balances as my job, neither have I ever constructed a game played by more than 10 people with things that need balance, so I can't possibly know if any of my "advice" would be feasable in any way. That's why those are just thoughts that sound nice and that could give some of the devs something to think about. Else they wouldn't ask for feedback on such a specific topic. They don't think someone will come along and post anything that is thought out to the tee and spot on with the mechanics and easy enough to be included, nor that it will hit with the community. Because we all have things and weapons we do like and would rather see only buffed and we all have different opinions on different weapons and how they should be used. You have seen, that some even point out, that weapons, who in comparison to other weapons need a rework or tweak are seen as completely fine. Just look at the proposals from others and think about "would that be fun to use if executed in the right way". I'd love to see more varying weapon uses, not just if dmg x should be dmg x -10 or if attack c should not do effect b. Those are fine, too, but think about the possibiltys. Even if the existing weapons are not changed in the way some of us say it should, someone doing new weapons could use ideas from this thread, too.


    Have a nice day,

    Tasja


    P.S.: Kruzifix, again the thing with the censored words. BS is okay that it is censored, but again the feces xD Am I the only one having trouble with that?

    But really. I'm a guy.


    Have a nice day.

  • CS- Balance

    Suggestion: Remove stun on revenge. New revenge should block and nullify damage up front. A example if another CS use a strong attack up close at a other CS with revenge on. Damage won't take on the revenge CS. Weapon like BR, TB , bat etc. That can break CS. Will only damage half of the attack if CS revenge was on. (Consume more SP with those type of weapon) CS revenge consume minimum SP when attack into revenge. When SP run out or no sp require for blocking nullify stop.

    Increase the attack of strong attack. More cooldown.

    Combo increase attack and a litte more speed in between slash.

    Decrease jump attack damage.

    Knockback needed be decrease.


    Reason: CS revenge with stun should never happen. The stun give to much advantage. It leaves player stun for a long time. Stun is the most hated in the game. CS should never had that. New CS should counter with block attacks and nullify damage up front. Not counter with Stun thats to much. The new revenge is same with Boots guarding. How I look at boots draining SP while attacking into CS revenge. Should be same with CS draining SP while players attacking into it. That look more balance. Boots is perfect example how CS revenge should have been. (I'm talking about the guarding)


    CS trump card the strong attack is underpower should increase damage but consume SP.


    Feel the combo isn't that great. Should increase little damage and speed between slash.


    Jump attack should be no where be strong. Should just be a tool for flinching. Can't happen last time when CS two shot combo. That's why decease damage alot.


    Knockback far to strong and far. Should decease it.

  • lower the delay after a shot so that you have a higher rate of fire. ("But you could just airhug, you noob", you might say now.

    Actually, even with shield / anchor cancel you're not allowed to fire two cannonade shots in rapid succession because much like rev and shotgun after you fire there's a period during which it's impossible to shoot again even if you shield cancel. That's the reason why you used to see some people using cano + rail gun with shield cancel to mimic rev/BSG AH. With Canno I believe that period is the longest in the game, which was made painfully clear to me when I made the mistake of trying anchor to cancel canno. Long story short, I couldn't begin charging the second shot before my feet reached the ground.

    Stuff like that is what I was talking about. Treating it as official mode even though it is inferior weapon limit is what made it preferred mode for a lot of ppl over the years. Why play against all weapons when you can play with less and gain the same?

    I can't believe I'm reading this. You know there exist people who enjoy the game differently from the way you do? There are some advanced techniques that only work inside of OS, some skills that are only useful when playing OS, knowledge that only applies to OS. To say that it is inferior, you would need to have experienced at least part of it, otherwise you're just like a buttonmasher that criticises a fighting game because they're not having fun.

    kinda want you to nerf it because there are some skilled™ players using macros with Gauss Rifle (and Rail Gun) but I guess it wouldn't be fair for other legit players.

    Are there though? I haven't seen anybody do that in at least 2 years. What I have seen is legit use of that technique by a guy called "M3XXX" (you know it's legit cuz he fails a lot), and from having tried it myself I can tell you that it's hard as hell. But let's suppose for a moment that there are people using a gauss macro. There are also people using aimbots. Are we going to delete from the game every weapon that requires aiming because they're OP when used that way?

    • Dagger : There is nothing to change here, everyone knows how to play against this and with it. Don't touch this.
    • Plasma Sword : Nothing needs to be changed here. Maybe the broken hitbox (see on video) but I wouldn't recommend touching this

    I HIGHLY AGREE!♥

    a girl who creates signatures but never made one for herself lmfao

  • Actually, even with shield / anchor cancel you're not allowed to fire two cannonade shots in rapid succession because much like rev and shotgun after you fire there's a period during which it's impossible to shoot again even if you shield cancel. That's the reason why you used to see some people using cano + rail gun with shield cancel to mimic rev/BSG AH. With Canno I believe that period is the longest in the game, which was made painfully clear to me when I made the mistake of trying anchor to cancel canno. Long story short, I couldn't begin charging the second shot before my feet reached the ground.

    I can't believe I'm reading this. You know there exist people who enjoy the game differently from the way you do? There are some advanced techniques that only work inside of OS, some skills that are only useful when playing OS, knowledge that only applies to OS. To say that it is inferior, you would need to have experienced at least part of it, otherwise you're just like a buttonmasher that criticises a fighting game because they're not having fun.

    Are there though? I haven't seen anybody do that in at least 2 years. What I have seen is legit use of that technique by a guy called "M3XXX" (you know it's legit cuz he fails a lot), and from having tried it myself I can tell you that it's hard as hell. But let's suppose for a moment that there are people using a gauss macro. There are also people using aimbots. Are we going to delete from the game every weapon that requires aiming because they're OP when used that way?

    It took me less than 1min to learn gauss with shield. Just press lke a retard the shield button the faster you can. You don't even need timing, just spam it.

    And about M3XX the problem is not the player itself but the enchants he got

  • It took me less than 1min to learn gauss with shield. Just press lke a retard the shield button the faster you can. You don't even need timing, just spam it.

    And about M3XX the problem is not the player itself but the enchants he got

    Did you really get to a point where you were comfortable bringing it to a real game? You can't just spam shield without any sense of timing since if you cancel the gauss shot too quickly it doesn't fire, but you still waste time with the pre-fire animation. The fire rate you're looking for is one that ideally exceeds the base firerate of the gauss rifle (which is the case in the gauss macro vid that empress linked). Misses have a devastating effect on your overall firerate, and if you can't get a good enough firerate with that technique you're going to get worse results than if you were playing semi-rifle instead.

  • the first shot of gauss is out of delaying. What does it means: the faster you'll spam your shield the faster the shot will recome. So the rate of fire will be faster.

    Just try IG by shooting while spaming shield. You'll see that the first shot do not need any delay, it will only shoot faster the more you spam your skill

  • The SP penalty is high (not high enough with current sp pools of most people) and that's why the one giving up much sp gets to counter attack, while the other one is still in the delay.

    You do know that there's 2 different type of dodge feints right? Next time you get Bat Jumped, press space then dodge. It literally costs no more SP than a normal dodge, and so you can do it several times. I could show you proof in game some time if you're interested.

  • Nerf the dagger damage

    The Damage is fine, however the ignoring of animation frames while holding WASD isn't. Damage isn't the only factor that makes things unbalanced, and I think if that animation bypass weren't possible it'd be much more fair, and punishable while also making a full successful stab feel more rewarding to land.

  • The Damage is fine, however the ignoring of animation frames while holding WASD isn't. Damage isn't the only factor that makes things unbalanced, and I think if that animation bypass weren't possible it'd be much more fair, and punishable while also making a full successful stab feel more rewarding to land.

    It would but you will be a sitting duck in case it fails to kill. Probably no one would like to use the stab at all.

  • It would but you will be a sitting duck in case it fails to kill. Probably no one would like to use the stab at all.

    Dagger should be high risk, high reward with that attack, but it's not so high risk since you can escape that post attack delay and start running, (or go for another stab). Though I see your point kinda. If they removed the WASD frame cancel then I wouldn't care if it got a damage buff personally.

  • Dagger should be high risk, high reward with that attack, but it's not so high risk since you can escape that post attack delay and start running, (or go for another stab). Though I see your point kinda. If they removed the WASD frame cancel then I wouldn't care if it got a damage buff personally.

    This.

    Dagger is not an high risk weapon. And add a CD after the stab should be normal. Bat JA and dash PS got one and its not as rewarding.

  • This.

    Dagger is not an high risk weapon. And add a CD after the stab should be normal. Bat JA and dash PS got one and its not as rewarding.

    cool...have you ever played with anyone with higher skills other than rookies in rookie channel..

  • Dagger should be high risk, high reward with that attack, but it's not so high risk since you can escape that post attack delay and start running, (or go for another stab). Though I see your point kinda. If they removed the WASD frame cancel then I wouldn't care if it got a damage buff personally.

    well, having the damage reduced is just another way of balancing but if having to think of it, it may make it obsolete compared to the fists for example.

  • the first shot of gauss is out of delaying. What does it means: the faster you'll spam your shield the faster the shot will recome. So the rate of fire will be faster.

    Just try IG by shooting while spaming shield. You'll see that the first shot do not need any delay, it will only shoot faster the more you spam your skill

    There is some delay on the first shot, I've tried it just now and I already knew anyway: you can cancel it with your shield if you're fast enough. I also tried to spam it like you said, didn't reach anywhere near this rate of fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGe9YGgaIow

    But if that's fine with you, then try bringing it to a real game to see how well it fares.

    The delay on the first shot didn't bother me while doing that, however, try this: bind your skill on either wheel up or wheel down. It's the fastest way to spam shield aside from macro. Then, shoot gauss while scrolling up or down. As it turns out, it doesn't work all that well (in fact, not at all with my mouse, worse than spamming even though it activates shield way more often). That's because if you're spamming shift this rapidly, suddenly cancelling your gauss shots becomes an issue. You might not even notice that it's cancelling them since it's doing so extremely rapidly, but your rate of fire is going to suffer. Because of that, getting a good firerate with that technique is extremely hard and even potentially impossible.