How to make people care about modes that are not Touch Down (easy)

  • Make instant respawn free.

    I bet people are going to be much more interested in Death Match, Battle Royale and such as opposed to Touch Down if they can respawn whenever they want for free.

  • What?

    That is a big no from me. Dying should be punishing.


    The instant respawns are exactly one of the reasons that ruined the other modes. You can stall a point in siege even if you keep dying all the time. You can exploit that in other modes just to finish off the player who killed you before someone else does it.


    A better solution is to remove them at all (together with all other respawn buffs)

  • I agree with Hella. Instant spawn has killed many modes imo. It's bad enough with only the tryhards constantly respawning, but having everyone do it for free would be just chaos. I'd rather them remove it in general as well.

  • I disagree with you disagreeing.

    "Instant respawn has killed many modes" -> How so? Which modes are you talking about? I can point you to examples of instant respawn existing and it not being an issue: there are plenty of games that allow you to respawn instantly or almost instantly in certain modes, and those modes are popular. For instance, Overwatch's FFA mode and Titanfall 2's Attrition mode.


    "having everyone do it for free would be just chaos" -> No. The ratio of stuff happening per people playing in the same room would increase, but you could always decrease the size of the room to compensate, which would decrease the chaos to a level that you find optimal.


    That is a big no from me. Dying should be punishing.

    Dying is punishing no matter what, since it gives points to the enemy team, which is literally how you lose, by them having more points. Save for captain, and warfare, but nobody plays those modes either way, and nobody should because they're bad.


    Dying already feels bad in games that let you respawn quickly, and I disagree heavily with the idea that people should be made to feel extra-bad when they get killed, especially when there are so many ways to unfairly kill people in the current meta.


    The instant respawns are exactly one of the reasons that ruined the other modes. You can stall a point in siege even if you keep dying all the time. You can exploit that in other modes just to finish off the player who killed you before someone else does it.

    What? Captures in sieges mean pretty much nothing. It's literally just a 15 points differential (21 if we assume each cap gives 2 + 1) maximum in a gamemode that often reaches 300 points. I already explained it in a post where you responded, do you not read before responding? And I don't really see how being able to finish off a player before a teammate can finish them off is going to be a bad thing.

  • Different games, different rules. S4L BR is nothing like OW FFA.

    Also imagine if TD had instant reswpans. It has the same bad effect on all other modes.


    I already said this: instant respwan lets you get a revenge on the person who killed you while he is still on low hp, which kills the whole point of him killing you on the first place.

  • Different games, different rules. S4L BR is nothing like OW FFA.

    Also imagine if TD had instant reswpans. It has the same bad effect on all other modes.


    I already said this: instant respwan lets you get a revenge on the person who killed you while he is still on low hp, which kills the whole point of him killing you on the first place.

    I'm sure you're going to explain what the meaningful distinction between the games I cited and S4 league which is relevant to the topic of instant respawns is. I'm all ears.


    TD with instant respawns is not the same as DM with instant respawn for instance. In TD with instant respawn, killing enemies would be pointless save for the ball carrier. In DM, killing enemies is always useful since that's how you win. That's also the case in BR and siege. Your comparison doesn't hold.

    "instant respwan lets you get a revenge on the person who killed you while he is still on low hp, which kills the whole point of him killing you on the first place."
    So, if I play a 1v1 DM, is it pointless that I kill my enemy first since they're going to kill me after that anyway?

    When two people keep getting revenge on one another, unless they are equal in all aspects, one of them is going to pull ahead.

  • I'm sure you're going to explain what the meaningful distinction between the games I cited and S4 league which is relevant to the topic of instant respawns is. I'm all ears.

    The point system is different (not to mention OW FFA is pure garbage and whoever steals most kills wins). In BR you have a target that gives 5 points and they only gain 2 by killing you.


    When two people keep getting revenge on one another, unless they are equal in all aspects, one of them is going to pull ahead.

    That is not the point. The point is, you get pushed for making a kill if that guy will just respawn behind you and kill you when you are on low HP.

    That is just kills exchange + luck and not actual skill.

  • Having all the players instantly spawn takes away from the game from a strategic point of view. Say you have a 6 v 6 DM match. By killing one of them, they must wait, (7 seconds?) before respawning, And during the time they're waiting to respawn is the time to act; push for the offensive; because all of the sudden the odds are in your teams favor because there's less of them, and more of you. Think of it like a game of chess. The more of their pieces you can keep off of the board; the better. There is more to DM than just "killing", and this is true for Siege and BR too.


    But then there's Instant Spawn which in this case of everyone getting it would keep the game at 6 v 6 constantly, and thus removing the ebb and flow that I described above. Patience is a virtue, and I honestly can't see why people can't deal with waiting a measly 7 seconds. Personally I use the time to take a sip of a drink or something while in waiting.


    However; if it were a setting that could be Enabled/Disabled then fine. I'd still rather not have it though personally.

  • The point system is different (not to mention OW FFA is pure garbage and whoever steals most kills wins). In BR you have a target that gives 5 points and they only gain 2 by killing you.

    Let's be real for a second, in BR, in 90% of cases, even if you respawn instantly, if you bring the target to low HP, chances are the target isn't going to live long enough for you to get from wherever you respawn to the target. Everybody is always trying to kill the target player. Also, even the target player would prefer a world where everyone respawns instantly, seeing as the life of a target player is 10 seconds of respawn, 3 seconds of invincibility and 5 seconds of being stuck in a 3v1 before dying.

    Besides, I've been talking about how BR's point system is stupid and leads to dumb boring games for a while. You're just making me even more convinced that it is and that it must be changed.

    Aside from that, I disagree that OW FFA is pure garbage, it's the second most fun I've had in OW behind 1v1s. I agree however that kill steals are stupid and the kills should go to whoever has dealt the most damage, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.


    That is not the point. The point is, you get pushed for making a kill if that guy will just respawn behind you and kill you when you are on low HP.

    That is just kills exchange + luck and not actual skill.

    But what's the difference from the perspective of the player who just got a kill between what you are saying and someone else coming up behind you and shooting you instead?
    Getting shot when you're still vulnerable from having fought someone, or while in the process of fighting someone, is something that already happens, and if everyone respawns instantly it is only going to happen more proportionally to how much more chaotic the game gets as a result of free respawns. But like I said, you can control that element of chaos through the variable of player count. So like, if you like the ammount of chaos going on in a 5v5, with infinite respawns you can get the same ammount in 4v4 or something, with the same ratio of unfair deaths etc.

    Having all the players instantly spawn takes away from the game from a strategic point of view. Say you have a 6 v 6 DM match. By killing one of them, they must wait, (7 seconds?) before respawning, And during the time they're waiting to respawn is the time to act; push for the offensive; because all of the sudden the odds are in your teams favor because there's less of them, and more of you. Think of it like a game of chess. The more of their pieces you can keep off of the board; the better. There is more to DM than just "killing", and this is true for Siege and BR too.

    I don't really play S4 league for the stategic aspect (especially when we're not talking about TD), and, though it may be different in SO, from what I have seen not many people do. People don't generally want to wait for their teammates to respawn, they want to get in quickly, show off their skill. I don't think much is gained by punishing the players for being aggressive.

    Like, it may be annecdotal, but in Neden-2 it's a huge mistake to try to spawncamp the enemy on either side (talking about unli), and it consistently leads to teams with better players and map control losing because they keep trying to rush the enemy spawn (by which I mean, anything that is past the central warehouse on either side). I constently have to remind my team not to rush the enemy spawn if they want to win, and in general it lasts for upwards of 2 minutes before I see one of my teammates getting shot up in the middle of the enemy spawn again and have to remind them.

    I really hope that's not them trying to do strategy, otherwise most of my S4 playmates are complete idiots. So, I don't care about strategy, most of the people I know don't care about strategy, I don't want to wait 10 seconds every time I die so that the few people who genuinely care about strategy can have their fun. The costs seem to outweigh the benefits.


    I honestly can't see why people can't deal with waiting a measly 7 seconds.

    Not 7, more like 10. The countdown does not start immediatly after you get killed. It's not enough time to do something productive, and exactly the time I need to realise when I am bored.

    However; if it were a setting that could be Enabled/Disabled then fine.

    Amen. That's all I'm asking, after all I am 100% sure my way is superior and would prevail over time.

  • Let's be real for a second, in BR, in 90% of cases, even if you respawn instantly, if you bring the target to low HP, chances are the target isn't going to live long enough for you to get from wherever you respawn to the target. Everybody is always trying to kill the target player. Also, even the target player would prefer a world where everyone respawns instantly, seeing as the life of a target player is 10 seconds of respawn, 3 seconds of invincibility and 5 seconds of being stuck in a 3v1 before dying.

    Using instant respawn can make a difference between winning and losing in BR at the end considering the top 3 are usually pretty close to each other.

    if the first place is 4 points away (which is 2 kills) you can just spawn instantly, finish them off before anyone else and win the match.


    Also not that I have to think of it, if everyone starts using it for free, the matches will be way too short than already are.

    Getting shot when you're still vulnerable from having fought someone, or while in the process of fighting someone, is something that already happens

    It happens but the persons who you have killed is taking penalty for dying so you can kill more in the meantime or get killed by someone else and come back with full hp when the time comes to Face that person again.

  • Using instant respawn can make a difference between winning and losing in BR at the end considering the top 3 are usually pretty close to each other.

    if the first place is 4 points away (which is 2 kills) you can just spawn instantly, finish them off before anyone else and win the match.


    Also not that I have to think of it, if everyone starts using it for free, the matches will be way too short than already are.

    Because BR uses a point system that is stupid on every level, I'm not going to defend BR, it needs to be changed regardless.


    It happens but the persons who you have killed is taking penalty for dying so you can kill more in the meantime or get killed by someone else and come back with full hp when the time comes to Face that person again.

    Why do you find it preferable to get killed by someone else rather than the person you have killed? And that hypothetical doesn't even make sense, you can change your position when you get killed. Not to mention, it's not even a problem in maps/modes where spawns are fixed which is the majority of what people play even outside of TD. And in an actual game 1v1s are not that common, 2v1s are more common for instance, and if you kill someone in 2v1 you're generally not vulnerable to being revenge killed. I don't know where this scenario coms from where two people keep revenge killing each-other with no outside interference but I don't think it's very realistic.


    And why are you so obsessed with players being "punished" or suffering a "penalty" ? I don't know which game design principles you adhere to, but I personally don't think maximizing frustration in your game is the way to go. People already have an incentive to not get killed, it's their KDR. Looking at your score and being in the negative feels bad

  • Because BR uses a point system that is stupid on every level, I'm not going to defend BR, it needs to be changed regardless.

    It will have negative effect on all modes, not just BR.


    Why do you find it preferable to get killed by someone else rather than the person you have killed?

    Because you really don't want to feed him if more if he is already the one with top score especially after you have just defeated him fairly. It makes no sense from competitive point of view.

    And why are you so obsessed with players being "punished" or suffering a "penalty" ? I don't know which game design principles you adhere to, but I personally don't think maximizing frustration in your game is the way to go. People already have an incentive to not get killed, it's their KDR. Looking at your score and being in the negative feels bad

    Because dying should be discouraged and killing someone should be rewarding otherwise it is just kill trading and not competition (even OW has wait times for their main mode).

    Also I doubt anyone will stop playing just because they get to wait 7 seconds. It is much better than other games like CS where you have to wait for the next round just to get another try.


    Speaking of k/d, that can be way more stressful than just waiting for a respawn.

  • as a main BR player i can tell how nasty instant respawn can be. Just remove it already from every mode, wish they had kept it for TD so people would cry 200% more about it till the removal

  • as a main BR player i can tell how nasty instant respawn can be. Just remove it already from every mode, wish they had kept it for TD so people would cry 200% more about it till the removal

    Yeah, everyone will be losing their mind if TD ever gets instant respawns.

  • It will have negative effect on all modes, not just BR.

    I disagree.


    Because you really don't want to feed him if more if he is already the one with top score especially after you have just defeated him fairly. It makes no sense from competitive point of view.

    This makes no sense. If you beat your enemy you still have HP to work with, HP with which you can damage them, or damage another person, so that it is easier to kill them next time, or even kill them if you're twice as good as they are. That is how you build a lead and end up winning the game. It makes perfect sense from a competitive point of view. Winning is still dictated by how good you are.

    Because dying should be discouraged and killing someone should be rewarding otherwise it is just kill trading and not competition (even OW has wait times for their main mode).

    Like I said, dying is already discouraged because that's how you lose. Nobody wants to let their team down with having a sh*tty KDR for the game. It's true no matter the game, even when the game has instant respawn. You have provided no evidence or argumentation to make me think that anything else is needed in order to discourage dying. Even in S4, dying feels bad in 1v1 even though you wait the same ammount of time whether you or your opponent gets the kill.

    And again, what is this scenario where nobody is interfering with your duel? I have no idea how often you play death match siege or BR, but 1v1s are more rare than you seem to believe, unless you play in dedicated rooms.


    Also, how is what Overwatch does in their main mode relevant to the conversation? I only brought up examples of games that allow you to respawn near-instantly to show that it's not some sort of novel, unconceivable concept that has never been successfuly tried before.


    Also I doubt anyone will stop playing just because they get to wait 7 seconds. It is much better than other games like CS where you have to wait for the next round just to get another try.

    It can add up with other sources frustration. People rage quitting happens pretty often, and I doubt either of us have access to what is going on in their mind when it happens. Obviously, "I have to wait 10 seconds" is not going to be their main frustration, or even one they would point to at all, but when a player gets killed several times in a row, they can end up getting bored and therefore being more prone to frustration.

    I know that when it happens to me, I start wanting to use instant respawns regardless of whether or not it allows me to cash in on low HP opponents. When I underperform, I need to get back in the groove as quickly as possible.

    Speaking of k/d, that can be way more stressful than just waiting for a respawn.

    I don't get you, you don't think k/d is enough of an incentive to make players care about dying but you still think k/d is the more stressful part of dying?

    It is much better than other games like CS where you have to wait for the next round just to get another try.

    Just because you can find something that's even worse than a 10 seconds respawn timer in DM, doesn't mean that a 10 second respawn timer in DM is okay.

    Well anyway, if you don't actually bring up a new argument rather than rehashing the same argument that I already responded to I'm just going to ignore you.

  • Let's not forget that those PEN Buffs give more advantage to users that paid or have been around for a really long time saving pen hence creating another split


    Nonetheless, instant respawning shouldn't be a thing in S4 unless you create a mode around it, other wise it has no place right now. This ain't a common shooter with normal movement, it's a fast paced game where 8 seconds to respawn are necessary to maintain balance in the game's tempo. I'm gonna side with Hella on this one, as you are just being biased cause to be honest all i can see is that you just want to instant respawn and that's it. S4 isn't just about DM 1v1s and "Only plasma" rooms, it has a load more of modes, weapons and gameplay types than just that so yes, 8 seconds to respawn is more than fair.


    I want you to think about the most common match, ST-2 Melee CPDB. Let's say you get stunlocked from 0 distance which is already a lot of time added to the stun but your partner manages to kill the stunlocker, sadly he instant respawned and you just gained a couple of steps forward before he came right out of the respawn.

    And that's just a 2v2, imagine a 5v5 or 6v6 where everyone can instant respawn, the match would go nowhere unless one team has obviously way more people than the other that can't instant respawn due to PEN issues.


    Instant respawn damaged every single mode that has it enabled really bad, if you wanna see it or not because you like instant respawning is another topic. You can't just toss in a instant respawn button in a game that has naturally waiting time to spawn

  • Seems like I won't be able to convince you so I just leave it as it is. you have your opinion, I have mine.


    Let's not forget that those PEN Buffs give more advantage to users that paid or have been around for a really long time saving pen hence creating another split


    Nonetheless, instant respawning shouldn't be a thing in S4 unless you create a mode around it, other wise it has no place right now. This ain't a common shooter with normal movement, it's a fast paced game where 8 seconds to respawn are necessary to maintain balance in the game's tempo. I'm gonna side with Hella on this one, as you are just being biased cause to be honest all i can see is that you just want to instant respawn and that's it. S4 isn't just about DM 1v1s and "Only plasma" rooms, it has a load more of modes, weapons and gameplay types than just that so yes, 8 seconds to respawn is more than fair.


    I want you to think about the most common match, ST-2 Melee CPDB. Let's say you get stunlocked from 0 distance which is already a lot of time added to the stun but your partner manages to kill the stunlocker, sadly he instant respawned and you just gained a couple of steps forward before he came right out of the respawn.

    And that's just a 2v2, imagine a 5v5 or 6v6 where everyone can instant respawn, the match would go nowhere unless one team has obviously way more people than the other that can't instant respawn due to PEN issues.


    Instant respawn damaged every single mode that has it enabled really bad, if you wanna see it or not because you like instant respawning is another topic. You can't just toss in a instant respawn button in a game that has naturally waiting time to spawn

    The game was originally designed with respawns in mind so I see no reason for this to change. There has been some speed and SP creep over the years and some maps have become very fast to get across but even with that i don't think respawn time should be removed completely. Maybe just reduced slightly or have it reduced only for very small rooms so counter play can still be possible.


    Not to mention the whole buff system was designed just as a pen sinker in mind and it actually hurts the game more than it helps (even p2w at some point considering it required coins to use those before it was changed to just pen)

  • This ain't a common shooter with normal movement, it's a fast paced game where 8 seconds to respawn are necessary to maintain balance in the game's tempo.

    Quake champions and Titanfall 2 both have almost instantaneous respawn times. You don't think they are fast paced games as well? Just because a game is fast paced, doesn't mean quick respawns are a bad idea.
    S4 league isn't a finely balanced formula where a single variation is going to ruin everything. Some people prefer to play in 4v4 rooms, some people prefer to play in 6v6 rooms. Some people like the current tempo of the game, some people might prefer it faster, especially in modes that most people don't even like. All I want is the option.


    you are just being biased cause to be honest all i can see is that you just want to instant respawn

    Of course I'm biased, I want the game to be more fun primarely because I want to have more fun playing it. But that doesn't mean I didn't give any arguments.
    -Waiting s*cks. I don't like waiting out the respawn timer any more than I like waiting out a loading screen. Humans as a species has evolved to prefer activity to waiting. That's why boredom exists.

    -Waiting makes dying more frustrating. If you get killed several times in a row for instance, you can spend 1 minute or more not having any fun and generally that's when you start getting bored and frustrated.
    And here is another one that I didn't get to bring up:
    -Waiting makes low population rooms even more boring than they would otherwise be, and since we're talking about DM here, it's a common enough occurence to matter.

    I want you to think about the most common match, ST-2 Melee CPDB. Let's say you get stunlocked from 0 distance which is already a lot of time added to the stun but your partner manages to kill the stunlocker, sadly he instant respawned and you just gained a couple of steps forward before he came right out of the respawn.

    And that's just a 2v2, imagine a 5v5 or 6v6 where everyone can instant respawn, the match would go nowhere unless one team has obviously way more people than the other that can't instant respawn due to PEN issues.

    Did you read my post? Like, just the title. When I say modes that are not touch down, I mean modes that are not touch down. This includes:
    -Modes that are not touch down
    -Modes that are not touch down
    -Definitely not St-2 CPDB

    Free instant respawns aren't going to do anything if the mode does not allow instant respawns in the first place.

  • Quake champions and Titanfall 2 both have almost instantaneous respawn times.

    In quake you are punished by losing all your weapons so you still have to go around getting them and collecting armor if you want to have a chance.


    Also unlike s4, quake is not a team game nor there is a target player that gives more points so making you wait more there wouldn't make sense anyway.

  • It won't work in any mode unless you really want people to stop playing those

    My thoughts exactly. Every mode that has instant spawn is rarely created anymore. The only mode that doesn't have it is the most commonly played one. I'd bet the TDers would quit if they added instant spawn to TD. Then the game would have to flat-line. Personally; instant spawn killed DM and BR for me. Those were my main, and favorite modes; (and I don't just mean swords).


    I play both Unlimited and Swords. I'll tell ya it in Unlimited DM / BR; it aint fun killing snipers just to have them IR and snipe u back moments after u kill them. Or for bombers to IR after going suicide-explosion mode; just to be back the next second, and possibly do it again..


    In Swords it's also not fun to fight against a team that has a super statted try-hard in DM / BR that has Blue F. S/he's almost unstoppable with the right weapons, but then even if you kill them; there they are again thanks to IR. That person alone could win a game vs an entire team.


    While IR can be used in a team manner; it's usually not. It's counter productive to team play because it usually is only used by the "hero" mindsets. "I'm gonna win this game by myself". What about the newer players? How can they have fun if they're dying constantly, but having to watch their pro "hero" teammate get all the kills? At least with the wait time; they have a moment to study other players actions; if they really wanted to.


    I'd rather them disable all spawn buffs; or add an option to disable them; along with the option to disable F skills as well.

  • It won't work in any mode unless you really want people to stop playing those

    They already doesn't play them because of it. It is not even that expensive to use it either.


    I play both Unlimited and Swords. I'll tell ya it in Unlimited DM / BR; it aint fun killing snipers just to have them IR and snipe u back moments after u kill them. Or for bombers to IR after going suicide-explosion mode; just to be back the next second, and possibly do it again..

    This is actually a good point. Most of the time it is already not worth to chase snipers down.

  • My thoughts exactly. Every mode that has instant spawn is rarely created anymore. The only mode that doesn't have it is the most commonly played one.

    Are you implying that instant respawn killed every mode that was not touch down? That's such a reach, there are so many factors at play and you blame the occasional instant respawn ?


    They already doesn't play them because of it. It is not even that expensive to use it either.

    And you jumped on board too lol. It's like, you don't really care how ridiculous an argument is, you're going to agree with it as long as it supports your point of view.


    I'd bet the TDers would quit if they added instant spawn to TD.

    Probably, that would be a really dumb idea. Did you see me argue for instant respawn in touch down? No. Is there a parallel that can be drawn relating to other modes? No, because touch down is unique in that the win condition is not to kill enemies.

    It won't work in any mode unless you really want people to stop playing those

    So, you're done trying to argue, eh. Now you're just restating your initial position and that's it. But like I said I'm fine with just having the option of enabling free instant respawns, if people don't like it, they don't enable it. And if your intuition is correct that everybody would prefer not to play with instant respawn, no harm done they can just choose to not enable it.


    I'll tell ya it in Unlimited DM / BR; it aint fun killing snipers just to have them IR and snipe u back moments after u kill them. Or for bombers to IR after going suicide-explosion mode; just to be back the next second, and possibly do it again..

    I probably play a fair bit more unlimited than you do, and I can't recall it ever happening to me. Is that really a problem or are you imagining one where there is none? The snipers still have to hit their shots, and the bomb users... Well you can just move away from their bombs. DM is not like TD, if you know the bomb is coming, it's not even a threat. Unless you're trying to melee people to death or something. I'm not going to tell you bomb is fair in the way it counters every sword that exists, but I don't think it has anything to do with the subject at hand. If someone has a bomb and you're trying to stay alive, the bomb is probably not going to be what kills you.

    In Swords it's also not fun to fight against a team that has a super statted try-hard in DM / BR that has Blue F. S/he's almost unstoppable with the right weapons, but then even if you kill them; there they are again thanks to IR. That person alone could win a game vs an entire team.

    That's how it works when a select few can use instant respawn, but if everybody can for free, then it's the opposite. There being a respawn timer introduces a snowball effect where the losing team is permanently fighting in numerical disadvantage due to their staggered respawn times and reduced map control. Therefore, if you take away the respawn timer, the matches should generally be more even.

    But even without getting into those details, don't you think there's something a bit paradoxical about you telling me that players who are good and therefore don't die a lot would benefit the most from there being no respawn timer ?

    While IR can be used in a team manner; it's usually not. It's counter productive to team play because it usually is only used by the "hero" mindsets. "I'm gonna win this game by myself". What about the newer players? How can they have fun if they're dying constantly, but having to watch their pro "hero" teammate get all the kills? At least with the wait time; they have a moment to study other players actions; if they really wanted to.

    I personally think respawn timers are incredibly unfriendly for new players. New players need to get their hands on the controls and figure out what works and what doesn't. While mimiching is a good way they can catch up, they get enough observation time seeing how their enemies destroy them. Right now if a player dies constantly, it just means they spend more time respawning than actually playing, and that can't be fun.

    Recently-ish, I've been through the experience of being a new player in Titafall 2, which has very quick respawns, and after dying I was happy to get back to the action immediatly. I never wished I could watch people play for longer or anything of the sort.

  • And you jumped on board too lol. It's like, you don't really care how ridiculous an argument is, you're going to agree with it as long as it supports your point of view.

    Well ofc I do. Why woudl I agree with something that doesn't fit my view. Alice3


    Also I have experienced it in matches. The only "ridiculous" thing about it is how much it trivializes the whole match when people with pen just spams it all the times. It feels like your kills means nothing cuz the guy is back on full HP like nothing happened.

  • So, you're done trying to argue, eh. Now you're just restating your initial position and that's it. But like I said I'm fine with just having the option of enabling free instant respawns, if people don't like it, they don't enable it. And if your intuition is correct that everybody would prefer not to play with instant respawn, no harm done they can just choose to not enable it.

    Silence is argument carried out by other means

  • Instant Respawn for free brings a couple problems to the table:


    - reload time is shortend (especially on smaller maps)


    - stronger enemies are alive almost constantly, making it harder to win by preying on weaker enemies (also your whenever they want concept could incentivise those weaker players being told "just stay dead and we'll win!", the s4 community can be pretty toxic and tryhard afterall... talk about beginner unfriendly huh?)


    - heal exists.. just because its banned in 99.9% of DM rooms doesnt mean that someone cant just constantly IR and heal their team..


    - some people dont check room conditions before joining (or dont know what it does), they will either not enjoy that match or leave. As long as join lag is a thing (and lets be honest i dont think it'll go away in the next 3 years if at all...) this will be made worse


    - There will be a few people just still wont use it, for example because they always forget. the team with those people might have a disadvantage..

    Also: i dont think that 'just make it an option' is a valid argument for whether or not that would be a good change. otherwise i may just argue:
    We should add an option that deletes s4 if you loose the match!! If you dont want that you can just not enable it!

  • In more competitive matches that re-spawn time is also useful for alerting your team of an enemy camping in a crucial spot, or also announcing to ur team who has low hp. By removing it there'd be little to no communication at all on either side. I've played some matches where teammates actually did give such needed info.


    I probably play a fair bit more unlimited than you do, and I can't recall it ever happening to me. Is that really a problem or are you imagining one where there is none? The snipers still have to hit their shots, and the bomb users... Well you can just move away from their bombs. DM is not like TD, if you know the bomb is coming, it's not even a threat. Unless you're trying to melee people to death or something. I'm not going to tell you bomb is fair in the way it counters every sword that exists, but I don't think it has anything to do with the subject at hand. If someone has a bomb and you're trying to stay alive, the bomb is probably not going to be what kills you.

    Whether you play more Unlimited than I do or not isn't relevant to the conversation. IR and MK2 bomb combined is an automatic turn off for me. There's also the lag factor when it comes to bombs. If your opponents lag; (because of distance or something else) the bomb will almost never miss you; because by the time you see it thrown it's most likely already hit you on their screen. (I live in the US, and so i'm used to that kinda thing happening). Also yes; in Neoniac; I have had snipers IR and kill me on the spot. Some maps spawn locations in BR make it very possible.


    Look at it from another point of view. IR puts the living at a disadvantage; (especially in BR). They're likely hurt; have to reload/regain sp, but can't because the person they just killed is already back with full HP/SP and full Ammo, and is likely seeking revenge on them. It doesn't make sense to punish a player for killing an enemy in a shooter game. I mean jeez...reward the person who killed their foe with a few seconds to breathe before the other person re-spawns. Is that really so bad?

  • Why woudl I agree with something that doesn't fit my view.

    If you had understood my question, instead you would have written "Why would I not agree with something that fits my view". To which I would have replied, because it makes you and your side look stupid when that "something" is a stupid argument.

    Also I have experienced it in matches.

    What is "it"?


    The only "ridiculous" thing about it is how much it trivializes the whole match when people with pen just spams it all the times.

    Because they're the only ones who can afford to use it maybe, but you still have to show me why you think it would trivialize the whole match if everyone had access to it.


    It feels like your kills means nothing cuz the guy is back on full HP like nothing happened.

    But you still get the points. When I want to know how well I'm doing, I look at my points, not at how much of people's time I have wasted. I thought it was the same for most people, but apparently not.


    - reload time is shortend (especially on smaller maps)

    You can still reload while your enemies are alive on the map, you just have to move to a less conspicuous position first, which is advisable either way because in DM you rarely know where every one of your enemies is.


    - stronger enemies are alive almost constantly, making it harder to win by preying on weaker enemies (also your whenever they want concept could incentivise those weaker players being told "just stay dead and we'll win!", the s4 community can be pretty toxic and tryhard afterall... talk about beginner unfriendly huh?)

    At last, a good argument ! I will concede that it may be frustrating from the point of view of a good or average player to have one of their teammates power-feeding the enemy team. But I don't think players like that are THAT common, generally when you get bad players on your team they're not so clueless that you can't sort of protect them, by which I mean make your enemies regret paying attention to them rather than to you.

    I will also point out that (at least from the unlimited side) the DM community is not invested enough in winning the game that they would especially mind a beginner losing them the game. It's more of a TD player kind of behaviour. My guess is that death match feels less like a team game, and you're happy if you got a good score either way.


    - heal exists.. just because its banned in 99.9% of DM rooms doesnt mean that someone cant just constantly IR and heal their team..

    I don't really follow your logic. How does healing, a tool that helps your teammates stay alive, benefit from dying becoming less of a setback than before?
    Like, I'm not saying heal wouldn't dominate in a no respawn environment, but I don't think it would dominate harder than it already does. And it definitely does already. If you have a competent healer on your team but the enemy team doesn't, you're pretty much assured to win already.


    - some people dont check room conditions before joining (or dont know what it does), they will either not enjoy that match or leave. As long as join lag is a thing (and lets be honest i dont think it'll go away in the next 3 years if at all...) this will be made worse

    You've just argued against any changes to anything ever. "If they don't like it, they're going to leave and then entry lags". I'm sure at first yeah, but then they're going to figure out whether they like it or not and then the problem is going to disappear save for the few who have Alzheimer's desease.


    - There will be a few people just still wont use it, for example because they always forget. the team with those people might have a disadvantage..

    It's hard for me to believe people forgetting that they can respawn instantly is a thing that happens in video games to a sufficient degree to where it affects the outcome of enough games that it is a problem worth mentioning.

    Also: i dont think that 'just make it an option' is a valid argument for whether or not that would be a good change. otherwise i may just argue:
    We should add an option that deletes s4 if you loose the match!! If you dont want that you can just not enable it!

    A) I disagree, if you're not sure of whether or not a change is good, letting people decide which way they want to play seems like the way to go.
    B) The difference between your example and my suggestion is that I think there is a good chance that people would enjoy playing that way, because of arguments I have mentioned.


    IR and MK2 bomb combined is an automatic turn off for me. There's also the lag factor when it comes to bombs. If your opponents lag; (because of distance or something else) the bomb will almost never miss you; because by the time you see it thrown it's most likely already hit you on their screen. (I live in the US, and so i'm used to that kinda thing happening). Also yes; in Neoniac; I have had snipers IR and kill me on the spot. Some maps spawn locations in BR make it very possible.

    That sounds like a random spawn problem more than an instant respawn problem. People respawning right behind you or next to you at the worst time possible, all of that already happens, with the only difference being that they're not the person you just killed but a thrid party, which is not a meaningful distinction in my opinion. Like, what is it about someone instant respawning and sniping you that annoys you to a higher degree than when some random third party snipes you from off screen, something which you don't have any more control over? I would argue that at least, if instant respawn is free, you can shrug it off and keep playing.

    Getting killed by surprise is something that happens more often when games get more intense, that's for sure. And instant respawn does makes games more intense. But again, you can control how intense you want your game to be through player count, so it balances out. At least that's how I see it.

  • If you had understood my question, instead you would have written "Why would I not agree with something that fits my view". To which I would have replied, because it makes you and your side look stupid when that "something" is a stupid argument.

    I don't see it as a stupid argument.


    What is "it"?

    The instant respawn


    Because they're the only ones who can afford to use it maybe, but you still have to show me why you think it would trivialize the whole match if everyone had access to it.

    I have already said it: the kills feels meaningless and even punishing if the guy can just comes back on full HP in no time like nothing happened.

    But you still get the points. When I want to know how well I'm doing, I look at my points, not at how much of people's time I have wasted. I thought it was the same for most people, but apparently not.

    It doesn't matter how many points you got if you are constantly exchanging kills with the enemy. There is no skill involved if one will always be with lower HP and the other respwnaing instantly on full HP again. You have no time to get healed or feed on others.

  • I don't think there is much a problem on how insta-spawn is. It costs pen, meaning if you don't have the pen to do so you can't and people who abuse it can easily Penlock themselves. TD doesn't need a never-dying defense (I say this because I am a Defender and I think it's unfair). I kinda miss the coins, but that made it inaccessible to normal players aside for the 6 coins you got per day.

  • I don't think there is much a problem on how insta-spawn is. It costs pen, meaning if you don't have the pen to do so you can't and people who abuse it can easily Penlock themselves.

    There is a problem though. Say you're a new player who has no perms. As a new player, you're gonna want to go for either the Fumbi Shop or the I Capsules for a chance to get FP items to compete with everyone else who already has said FP items. Therefore you must either upload AP, or spend PEN.


    Meanwhile the people who already have all their op gear and Shiny F are just swimming in PEN with nothing to use it on except for spawn buffs.


    TD doesn't need a never-dying defense (I say this because I am a Defender and I think it's unfair).

    DM & BR didn't need to be any faster either, and yet here we are. They've become a mess because of it. With everyone instant spawning there's no room to breathe after you get any kills. After you get a kill you should be able to recover a little before said killed person is back for revenge.


    I kinda miss the coins, but that made it inaccessible to normal players aside for the 6 coins you got per day.

    Although I dislike Instant Spawns in general, I would be more okay with Coins being a thing again rather than this "who has the biggest PEN wallet" dump we have now. The only reason i like this idea more is because it doesn't cater to only the oldies who have all the PEN in the world to spend. So it'd give newer players more PEN to Fumbi or buy Capsules with.


    What would be great imo is an option to disable the buff system completely on room creation, which sadly will not happen.