When someone who is lagging accuses you of ping...

  • And you're not lagging; in fact, most players aren't, and you especially are seeing everything and playing in real time. But this person across the way shouts "fix your ping!" and you're wondering what they're talking about because neither you, nor anyone you can see, is lagging, not even lag switching. Yet because they're lagging, they look at who is farthest distance from them personally aka who has the red bar on their end (spoiler: bar levels are different for everyone) and blame that person for lagging them, even though the person they're blaming isn't lagging at all.

    Sometimes I've had this thrown at me, sometimes it's been thrown at some other person. Oftentimes when someone is accused that's not me, I can see that the accused isn't lagging at all, nor the accuser, and I'm wondering what in the world is going on because literally no one ever lags when I play, just from what I can see.

    Here's a pro tip: If someone is telling you that they can't see anyone lagging, but you yourself are lagging, then the lag is purely on your end, and isn't even affecting other players. From my experience in the game, the notion that if one person's lagging, then that's making others lag, is never actually the case.


    Please stop blaming other people for your lag and actually look at your own connection. Chat shouldn't be for false lag accusations; it should be for cheering on your team and being a good sport by GGing your opponents. So let's make chat much friendlier! ^-^

  • I too agreed to your statement and its really tough to even explain to these players for accusing "you" lagging...
    They don't really know how it works do they :S?
    My case, usually don't bother about itX/.

  • Y'know, it's kind of funny because there are some online games that use Peer 2 Peer, like Vindictus, which actually does create lag for other people in the same room. But I think Aeria uses virtual servers or something? So S4 League likely wouldn't have Peer 2 Peer now even if it might have in the past (which it may have, I don't remember). It's not like the argument that someone else in a room can lag you is wrong per se, it's just wrong for this game.

  • I am from the USA so i use to get a lot of "lag" complaints due solely to the fact my ping was blue to most EU folks. Even when the gameplay was perfectly fine some one (usually the same individuals over and over) would complain if i killed them or scored or something. Then i realize people just like excuses for their shortcomings.


    Its really EASY to tell if your lagging in a game like s4. But if your being wrongfully accused by salty players just block em. Problem solved.

  • I am from the USA so i use to get a lot of "lag" complaints due solely to the fact my ping was blue to most EU folks.

    I totally get you. What people don't understand is that ping represents the distance between you and a server, not the actual strength of connection between you and a server. You can have a short but slow path, or a long yet fast one. If a server is in EU, but a European user has a slow data package or bad path, they can have a slower connection than a US player. Normally I just get a high speed package just in case; in fact, many ISPs will actually tell you what their recommended speed for gaming is depending on the nation that ISP is in, so ISPs can be very helpful in helping you figure out if your package is too slow. If you have a high speed package and it's still slow, try a method to reset your path to the server (this is actually necessary if you get a bad tunnel error) - changing IP normally does it, but it's not the only option.

  • S4 League is still peer to peer as much as I know...

    I don't see why it would be. Normally peer 2 peer means if one person lags, everyone else does, but that's not the case in S4L. And I thought Aeria switched to virtual servers, which makes peer 2 peer redundant.

  • I don't see why it would be. Normally peer 2 peer means if one person lags, everyone else does, but that's not the case in S4L. And I thought Aeria switched to virtual servers, which makes peer 2 peer redundant.

    The kill feed is handled by the server but the interactions between players are p2p. This is also why 2 ppl can kill each other at the same time. The server receives data from both but the kill data coming from the lagging player arrives later.

  • The kill feed is handled by the server but the interactions between players are p2p. This is also why 2 ppl can kill each other at the same time. The server receives data from both but the kill data coming from the lagging player arrives later.

    This would then suggest that peer 2 peer isn't causing any lag at all (which is strange, but I guess the stuff that counts is still based on the server), which means that 100% a lagger is purely lagging because of server connection.


    One would think the interactions between players would be more stressful than kill data, though, so I'm just fully confused right now.


    ... Actually, if we assume that player interactions are purely peer 2 peer and kill data is server, then how in the world can a player be lagging on server but other players not be lagging in the match with them? If peer 2 peer is routed through the server anyway, and the distance between two players is far longer PLUS both are still using their routes to the server, how is the server connection slower? That doesn't even make sense. Someone please explain this.

  • which means that 100% a lagger is purely lagging because of server connection.

    No it doesn't. They are lagging because their connection is too slow to send stuff to the server before the other person does and not because the server is slow. However this is just the kill feed. The real issue is when a player has slow upload speed to another player (which is the p2p connection). This means the lagging player receives the data from the other player on time (assuming his download speed is not too slow as well) but because their connection is too slow, the other player receives their data with a delay which results being hit from miles away with a melee weapon by a lagging player.


    So when someone says , lag works both ways, it is not entirely true at all. A player who receives data on time but has their data delayed (way too slow upload speed) to the others, they have an advantage. Even if they receive the data with a delay, their sent data to the other player will be even slower (due to most ISP offering faster download speed over upload speed).


    Ofc s4 is not a very connection demanding game but anything under 1-2Mbps upload/download speed causes very noticeable lag.

  • They are lagging because their connection is too slow to send stuff to the server before the other person does and not because the server is slow. However this is just the kill feed. The real issue is when a player has slow upload speed to another player (which is the p2p connection). This means the lagging player receives the data from the other player on time (assuming his download speed is not too slow as well) but because their connection is too slow, the other player receives their data with a delay which results being hit from miles away with a melee weapon by a lagging player.


    So when someone says , lag works both ways, it is not entirely true at all. A player who receives data on time but has their data delayed (way too slow upload speed) to the others, they have an advantage. Even if they receive the data with a delay, their sent data to the other player will be even slower (due to most ISP offering faster download speed over upload speed).


    Okay, this is still somewhat confusing, so I need a further clarification. It sounds like you're saying that the person who has the worst connection to other players has an advantage? How is that possible when there's only one person whining about lag while everyone else is playing in real time? Are you saying that one person is actually the one with the strongest connection? That doesn't make sense.

  • the worst connection to other players has an advantage?

    it is "advantage" in meaning of he will lags more to you than you to him if his upload speed is lower than yours and assuming his download speed is not as bad as his upload speed (since download speed is usually higher). So everyone else will still be lagging for him (because of his bad download speed) but for the other players he will be lagging even more (because of his even lower upload speed).

  • So everyone else will still be lagging for him (because of his bad download speed) but for the other players he will be lagging even more (because of his even lower upload speed).


    But that's not at all what I've seen in-game. Absolutely no one lags in-game from my perspective. Literally everyone is in real time, even the people who are complaining about other peoples' ping. That's why I feel like S4L doesn't use peer2peer anymore, strictly because I've never seen anyone lag at all since I restarted playing this year.

  • Absolutely no one lags in-game from my perspective.

    Just because no one lags to you that doesn't mean you don't lag to them.

    if you have 50Mbps download speed you will be able to download the data from everyone else very fast but if your upload speed is less than lets say 1mbps, you will be teleporting for everyone else because you aren't sending data to them fast enough.

  • Just because no one lags to you that doesn't mean you don't lag to them.

    if you have 50Mbps download speed you will be able to download the data from everyone else very fast but if your upload speed is less than lets say 1mbps, you will be teleporting for everyone else because you aren't sending data to them fast enough.


    But again, that argument doesn't work when only one person in the entire match is lagging and no one else is. And it's not even just from my perspective. Time and again I only see one person in chat saying they're lagging and everyone else replies saying there's no lag, not just me. But these few people complaining about lag aren't talking about kill data, they're talking about lag in general, which literally no one else has.

    Also, pretty much everyone has drastically lower upload speed than download speed. ISPs intentionally do that because they don't like people abusing torrents; there are some ISPs that have packages specifically for peer 2 peer transfers but those are insanely expensive, and normally the highest option they offer for non-businesses.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Rezilia ().

  • which literally no one else has.

    Technically everyone has lag. 1ms or less is still lag. So saying some is lagging can be very subjective. Most of the time ~50 ms is considered ok, 100-150 acceptable, and anything beyond that is heavy lagging.

    There are also other things that has to be consider such as distance and connection quality.

    You may not lag to someone from your country but the guy on the other side of the globe will lag to both of you and you to him.

  • You may not lag to someone from your country but the guy on the other side of the globe will lag to both of you and you to him.

    I understand that, but from playing other peer 2 peer games - such as Vindictus - if one person was lagging, literally everyone else would lag to heck because of them, the instant that person entered the room. But in S4 League, if one person is lagging, everyone else can be in real time with no noticeable difference. That's why it just doesn't make sense to me for S4 League to be peer 2 peer, because it's a completely different situation.

  • I understand that, but from playing other peer 2 peer games - such as Vindictus - if one person was lagging, literally everyone else would lag to heck because of them, the instant that person entered the room. But in S4 League, if one person is lagging, everyone else can be in real time with no noticeable difference. That's why it just doesn't make sense to me for S4 League to be peer 2 peer, because it's a completely different situation.

    Because in other p2p games the room is hosted by a player while in S4 it is hosted by the server and only the interaction between each player individually uses p2p.

  • Understandably, it would be hard to wrap your head around this if you don't understand all of the networking models used in games, and how they differ.


    I'm going to use what Hella said and say that S4 is purely P2P, no relays, just each player directly connecting to each other. This would mean that each client is in charge of their own simulation... and we know this because everything client-side can be hacked.


    Now that we know that, we can create some scenarios. Let's set some locations and bandwidth limits first:

    (For this we're going to assume there's 0% packet loss, since that would just be wayyyyy to complex for a little forum post)


    Zhav lives in the Caribbean, with an upload speed of 0.5mbps and download speed of 0.1mbps, and his ISP routes directly to Miami, USA (no other routes).

    Hella lives in Miami, USA with an upload speed of 10mbps and download speed of 20mbps, and his ISP routes all over the world (he's near a hub).

    Rezilia lives in Scotland, with an upload speed of 20mbps and download speed of 0.1mbps, and his ISP also routes all over the world (he's also near a hub).


    All three of us are in a match of S4, sending packets directly to each other.


    Zhav's packets have to travel to Miami before routing to Rezilia. It takes 150 milliseconds on average for Zhav's packet to reach to Rezilia, vice versa.

    Hella's packets don't have to travel far to get to Rezilia and Zhav. It takes 40ms for Hella's packet to reach Zhav, and 80 to reach Rezilia, vice versa.

    Rezilia's packets don't have to travel far to get to Hella, but takes extra long to get to Zhav.


    We also need to assume the average size of a packet and how often it sends. So let's say it's 120bytes per packet, being sent 20 times a second. That's (0.12kb*20)^n where n is the number of players in a game. So in our case, that's 33kb/s, in other words 0.264mbps.... And now we already have a problem..


    Two of our players have less upload speed than required, so what happens to those packets? They never get sent at the right time, and since S4 uses TCP (I think), it tries to guarantee that they get sent, so they will arrive at a later time. To Hella, both Zhav and Rezilia would appear to be out of sync, with choppy movement, or teleports, or just act weird, because our packets arrive late. To Zhav and Rezilia, Hella looks fine, since we have enough download speed to receive her packets perfectly, and she has enough upload speed to send packets perfectly.

  • Because in other p2p games the room is hosted by a player while in S4 it is hosted by the server and only the interaction between each player individually uses p2p.


    Thanks for the explanation!

    This all seems, then, like any amount of lag...isn't the fault of the player, and still seems like ping doesn't really matter per se. It's extremely rare for a case like fake-Rezilia's and fake-Zhac's above where the upload speed is actually greater than the download speed; in fact, even the upload speed being at least half of the download speed - like in fake-Hella's case - is also extremely rare. And this is purely due to ISPs forcing upload speed down, not even something someone can fix unless, as I said before, they buy the uber expensive peer 2 peer specific package that only some ISPs offer to non-businesses.

    It's obvious that ISPs worldwide intentionally make peer 2 peer bad to use because of upload speed being minimized so much. With that in mind, and also keeping in mind that in this (and most) scenario(s), all players synced up to the server itself just fine, wouldn't it still be better to switch to just virtual servers and get rid of peer 2 peer completely?

    Even if an argument for this is that "well then the servers will stress and those with worse connections to the servers will lag even more" I'd counter with the notion that virtual servers are less stressed than physical servers which is why MMO companies are using them now, and in the current model those with better connections - or at least better upload speeds - are being harmed instead, which is even worse.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Rezilia ().

  • It does matter. It guarantees that the person is lagging.

    Not really though? Someone can have 200 ping just on a game without peer 2 peer and still lag less than someone with 50 ping. Ping lies. Add ping values into peer 2 peer which normally is also affected by distance between you and other players, and ping is even less reliable. Ping is a horrible measurement of connection speed and strength, and results in many false accusations of lag, in server p2p, in host p2p, in physical server, in virtual server... It always lies.


    Of course, it's even less reliable when you're being shown someone's else ping bar which is different from a ping value that player themself would see on a server list.

  • Not really though? Someone can have 200 ping just on a game without peer 2 peer and still lag less than someone with 50 ping. Ping lies. Add ping values into peer 2 peer which normally is also affected by distance between you and other players, and ping is even less reliable. Ping is a horrible measurement of connection speed and strength, and results in many false accusations of lag, in server p2p, in host p2p, in physical server, in virtual server... It always lies.


    Of course, it's even less reliable when you're being shown someone's else ping bar which is different from a ping value that player themself would see on a server list.

    comparing p2p to p2s2p is just wrong. Obviously p2s2p will have higher amount of lag because of the server verification but that affects all players playing the game not just 1.


    A person with 200 ping will still lag more than a person with 50 in a p2s2p game

    A person with 200 ping will still lag more than a person with 50 in a p2p game

  • A person with 200 ping will still lag more than a person with 50 in a p2s2p game

    A person with 200 ping will still lag more than a person with 50 in a p2p game

    This is the single greatest lie in the history of online gaming. I've already told you that I've constantly seen this disproven. I've seen people in any kind of connection - just to phys server, just to virt server, just p2p, and just p2s2p - lag more as 50 than someone with 200. I've seen it over and over again. Ping is a lie. It's best as an estimation, but it doesn't determine stability, and distance does not itself accurately determine speed. It's even more of a lie when you "see" other players' ping, because that value is always different from the ping the player themself sees to the server or host. I have never, in any game, ever seen ping as a reliable measurement, because time and again it's proven to be wrong.

  • I understand what you're trying to say by "ping is a lie". Most players base all of their "lag" only on their ping. If S4 gave more information on the player's connection to each client, I'm sure this would be cleared up quickly.

  • This is the single greatest lie in the history of online gaming. I've already told you that I've constantly seen this disproven. I've seen people in any kind of connection - just to phys server, just to virt server, just p2p, and just p2s2p - lag more as 50 than someone with 200. I've seen it over and over again. Ping is a lie. It's best as an estimation, but it doesn't determine stability, and distance does not itself accurately determine speed. It's even more of a lie when you "see" other players' ping, because that value is always different from the ping the player themself sees to the server or host. I have never, in any game, ever seen ping as a reliable measurement, because time and again it's proven to be wrong.

    No one said it guarantees stability but it measures what it is supposed to measure (and that doesn't include stability). There may be exceptions but for the most time it is pretty reliable way to tell who lags and who doesn't.


    Sometimes the game may switch the connection of a player from p2p to p2s2p if they lag too much and then you will see only your ping to the server instead of the full ping to that player but those cases aren't really that common. That has more to do with the game no longer showing RT tag after the ping if the connection switches to p2s2p.

  • What? I though TCP was better than UDP?

    Not for a game like S4, where players are moving around really quickly. The issue with TCP is that it's slow... Since it requires a response that you received the packet. With UDP, we just fire the packet, with no need to wait to see if it was received. For events like Melee swinging, or kill feeds, we can instead use another transport layer called Reliable UDP, which does something similar to TCP (keeping packet order and packet acknowledgement).

  • Since it requires a response that you received the packet. With UDP, we just fire the packet, with no need to wait to see if it was received. For events like Melee swinging, or kill feeds, we can instead use another transport layer called Reliable UDP, which does something similar to TCP (keeping packet order and packet acknowledgement).

    But what you're saying is that the server itself will use UDP and Reliable UDP, right? There's nothing special the actual players need to do?

  • DOS actually mainly relies on TCP while UDP throws automatically packets away, if nothing can be started with them. If I start explaining how DOS works, I would have to start explaining the TCP handshake first ^^

  • DOS actually mainly relies on TCP while UDP throws automatically packets away, if nothing can be started with them. If I start explaining how DOS works, I would have to start explaining the TCP handshake first ^^

    So you're saying UDP is actually better client-side for not getting DOS'd? Or do you mean server-side?

  • that was not to differentiate if either TCP or UDP is better. Both are essential for its spectrum of tasks and they both work entirely different. Imagine an IP call with TCP and one of the call members are lagging really hard. Due to TCP it would have to send all packets which "have" to arrive and hence you won't understand what the opposite said because the words arrive either delayed or you receive senseless phrases because the order which the packets have to arrive isn't important as long they arrive.


    Getting back to your main question what actually can be done against DOS, it is to implement specific techniques that automatically recognize DOS attacks and throws these attacks back to the user or automatically bans the ip if it occurs