PS triggers me.

  • I know there are issues right now that are more pressing than the balance of the Plasma Sword, but nobody seems to talk about it, leading me to think that not many people share my opinion that PS is currently overtuned, does not promote skillful play and is frustrating to play against. Note that what I am going to say only applies to touch down, I have no experience playing Sword Only therefore it only applies to unlimited, and it only applies to games with a low player count (4v4 or lower).


    The stun


    -Very high server latency cause$ hits to be harder to dodge, but the tradeoff is that it has become hard to predict where an enemy player will land when you knock them back. The stun does not have that setback, and thus only benefits from server latency, where other moves have now become unreliable.

    -Chips and enchants have significantly increased the average health pool and stamina pool. As a result, rushers now expect to be able to sustain a few melee hits and be able to air recover if pushed away as well as evade if they are hit. But if you get stunned once, it's over.

    -It goes without saying, but stun is, and has always been a frustrating move to get hit by. The intense hate that was directed toward it during the early days of S4 was not due to it being particularly OP, because it wasn't, but having the game take away control from you and have you watch yourself die is always going to be frustrating.

    -The consequence is that most PS users are defaulting to stun every time they have to defend and don't really have a reason to get good at using light/strong cuts, and that means passing up on most of the weapon's depth.


    The dash


    -Spamming dashes was one of the marks of a beginner for a long time in S4. I have no clue why the devs decided to actually buff that move but here we are. What they did, a while back, that many players haven't even noticed, is that they increased the potency of the stagger effect that it inflicts (for lack of a better terminology). Basically, before the buff happened, it was possible to just dodge for the normal amount of SP after getting hit by a dash, and you could also cancel your dodge directly after getting hit to puni$h it with a revolver hit, a dagger stab, a bat JA and such. Now however, you have to expand extra-SP to get out of the stagger animation, and you cannot cancel it halfway through. I think there is a way to get around it (see Fazoodle's post on the different types of evade),but the window you get to perform that trick and punish the dasher is extremely small and latency does not help with precise timings. Anyway, now spamming dashes when you're out of bullets actually works a certain percentage of the time, and it's just sad.

    -More importantly, latency helps PS users the most when it comes to scoring. The fact that they get knocked back with a certain delay means that very often, the dash they initiate after getting hit on the defender's screen is going to go through, either partially or completely, leading to them often scoring and only then getting pushed away from the goal, as if by a vengeful ghost of some kind, or escaping getting pushed out of the map into the bottomless abyss.

    -Also, it used t be that you could not dash carelessly into the goal against a revolver player since they had the ability to make you miss your dash if they hit you at the right timing, but it doesn't seem to happen very often anymore, although I can't tell if it is because of the Rev/Shotty/HG/Dual nerfs or because of server latency.



    Anyway, it's kind of an unconventional opinion so I'm interested to see if anyone has anything to say.

  • The only issue with PS that I see is the stun spam (especially in SO). It can easily be fixed by adding a cooldown.

    Other than that the PS really isn't much of a big deal. There are more powerful swords out there.


    Also the lag is a big issue with any sword not just the PS.

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  • I understand you feel that way about ps but I dont share such feelings. PS has been this way since the dawn of time (took a break for a year & when I came back the dashed seemed stronger correct me if im wrong). Maybe the stun could use a cool down but like the op mentioned, theres other broken weaps that are waaaaaaayyyyyy higher on the list.



    TL:DR I think ps is fine stun could use a CD but its nowhere near a priority.

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    Hey! Thanks for the feedback. I'm going to have to disagree with most of what you said though, and it appears as though there have been some points where I failed to communicate my point effectively, resulting in a misunderstanding.

    First off, yes I want weapons to be balanced around latency, unless latency is fixed somehow, which does not look like it is going to happen. We gotta work with what we have. Same thing when it comes to the chip stats. I hate them, but it's likely that they are here to stay, in which case we have to balance weapons around them.


    You make the point that stunning leaves you open to get punished by the enemy team, which I have already taken into consideration (hence why I said that my complaints only applied to games with low player count), and even then, it is very often worth the risk given that your team can deal with the stunned attacker very easily in a way that prevents the fumbi from being picked up by the enemy team.


    You also make the point that it's only fair for a rush attempt to die as easily as a stun hitting, which I agree with, the issue is that very few weapons have access to a consistent way to stun, meaning that those that do have received an indirect buff compared to those that don't. I made that point to explain why I consider stun to be currently stronger than in has ever been, not to explain why I find it problematic, that comes later.


    And then you seem to think that it's fine for stun to be frustrating because frustration has become an integral part of the S4 experience nowadays, which is a strange position to have. Normally you'd want the game as a whole to get less frustrating, and that can only be achieved by tweaking the individual pieces that make it so, which is what I'm advocating for.


    "And while they cast it you totally can't shoot them in the head with revo or your sniper could cancel them right."

    -> I mean, what ends up happening more often than not when you do that is that they're still alive and you still have to go through them, at which point you need to kill them or something, and you waste a lot of time that you probably don't have because their team is going to respawn. Not to mention, with latency you very often end up getting stunned anyway.


    "Well, the strong cut has the potential to push the opponent in the wrong direction. If people want to play safe, why blame them for it."

    -> I don't blame them for it. I blame the weapon. A well designed weapon gives its user an incentive to explore its depth, which plasma sword fails to do because stun is the correct option in a large majority of defensive scenarios.


    "This is straight up a lie. There were even missions where you had to do faint-dodges in the early days of s4. Those include dodging out of being stunned or out of the dash's stagger. And this special dodge can't easily be canceled out like the normal ones."
    -> I might be misremembering some things but I'm pretty sure that they did tweak the stagger animation of the dash attack (I remember reading the patch notes for it) and I'm pretty sure that performing a counter against a PS dash has become harder than it used to be. I got into an argument with a friend over it after the fact, and despite thinking that countering dashes was easy, they weren't able to do it once in 10 minutes of attempt so that's where my assumption comes from, in part. Again, there always is the possibility that I am entirely wrong, I just wish the translated patch notes had been kept somewhere.


    "Yeah speedcounter has a narrow time window, that is why you practise techniques"
    Again, the issue is latency. You don't know precisely when you're going to get hit, so getting the timing right is harder than it has ever been, and somewhat luck dependent. Like, when is the last time you've seen PS get speedcountered in unli?


    "I list things more critical to turn down than punish the weapon for stupid surroundings"
    Weapons don't exist in a vacuum. Also I started my post explicitly stating that I considered the issues with plasma sword as being low priority.


    "Else: "It doesn't seem to happen very often anymore" is just hearsay. "

    -> I'm appealing to shared experience. I do not need to justify with data something that everyone can observe, unless there is a disagreement over whether or not my observation is accurate.


    "If Revo doesn't satisfy you, you can always try AG, melee or MK2-Gauss, as well as suggest a slight buff to revo in that regard (which would in my opinion be a lot more useful)"

    -> I have suggested a buff to Revo and shotty already, in a separate post. This post specifically deals with the current issues with PS, it does not aim to provide any solutions, although if anyone wants to propose some they are welcome to do so.


    "Don't

    balance

    around

    latency"


    Why? There is no more official S4 free of latency. You can balance weapons for good servers all you want, but it will not benefit anybody, because everybody has to deal with the current servers.

  • Again, the issue is latency. You don't know precisely when you're going to get hit, so getting the timing right is harder than it has ever been, and somewhat luck dependent. Like, when is the last time you've seen PS get speedcountered in unli?
    --> speed counter isnt used in unli that often because players tend to stun then use a f--kin gun



    "And while they cast it you totally can't shoot them in the head with revo or your sniper could cancel them right."

    -> I mean, what ends up happening more often than not when you do that is that they're still alive and you still have to go through them, at which point you need to kill them or something, and you waste a lot of time that you probably don't have because their team is going to respawn. Not to mention, with latency you very often end up getting stunned anyway.

    --> you need to kill to score ? you only need to do that if they have a bajilion wall in front of the goalpost other than that you can dodge the shots by using unpredictable route or movement



    First off, yes I want weapons to be balanced around latency, unless latency is fixed somehow, which does not look like it is going to happen. We gotta work with what we have. Same thing when it comes to the chip stats. I hate them, but it's likely that they are here to stay, in which case we have to balance weapons around them.


    --> how are you going to balance weapons to smth that gives extra stats :?::?: I mean chips are made to make you stronger. its true that lvl 5 are hard to get but full level 4 can still give you pretty good stats


    "Well, the strong cut has the potential to push the opponent in the wrong direction. If people want to play safe, why blame them for it."

    -> I don't blame them for it. I blame the weapon. A well designed weapon gives its user an incentive to explore its depth, which plasma sword fails to do because stun is the correct option in a large majority of defensive scenarios.



    --> boy they give you 3 weapons for a reason you cant just depend on 1 weapon and that is it, i use ps vs 1 maximum 2 ppl .when its more i use another weapon like tb or bat, in unli i use bomb or rl. in games like s4 where you can equip more than 1 weapon it is there for a reason . and that reason is to use more than one weapon to strategically win. i'd suggest watching these videos down and you will see that they dont depend on 1 weapon only but they create a set that they can use to def their base and the how kz actually 1 v 8 not by using 1 weapon but by using 3 weapons together and knowing when to use each one


  • The CS and The PS stun have been always a trouble.
    Especially the cs , got a huge advantage over the entire weapons in the game.
    The only one solution possible is a cooldown or making the stun and holding the CS revenge , SP consuming.
    It's distinctly unfair to make the CS practically the only defensive weapon in the game , Not to mention its agility , Just weeding the CS revenge out or cooling down the stun for both the CS and PS would make it waning out.

  • Well, if everyone stop playing in CPD only rooms, it won't be.

    I'm not a CS player myself but It's an anguish facing them especially against a stacked up room of same clan members. The way you toss someone off the map but simply soars back at you is an advantage.
    The way you can hold the revenge even while dodging makes it struggling to attack him whilst , is an advantage.
    Sweep the sword swiftly at any direction that works as evasion and an attack , is an advantage.
    Holding the revenge against the wall that gives you an absurdly peculiar acceleration Idk why.
    Macro users , Abusing it even more and actually dispersed in every room.

    Some weps might be OP in only one element of the following '' Agility - Attack - Defence '' But I haven't see one weapon that combines all of them yet , But the CS.

  • I can agree that is kinda of a must have weapon but there is really no reason not to pick it if you have 3 slots of weapons anyway.


    Also macros are problem in general not just cs.

  • Well I agree with most of it but I honestly don't have a problem with the stun or the dash. If we only take the weapon itself into consideration I feel the light slash hitbox is really irritating and way too big. Other than that I think the weapon itself is fine. Factors like unpredictable enchants/laghits, boosted up forcepacks, esper chips, unique skills are making everything just broken. Making you sometimes feel like you play this game since days because hits that shouldn't hit you are hitting you (what a strange sentence). I think you get what I mean.

    -Also, it used t be that you could not dash carelessly into the goal against a revolver player since they had the ability to make you miss your dash if they hit you at the right timing, but it doesn't seem to happen very often anymore, although I can't tell if it is because of the Rev/Shotty/HG/Dual nerfs or because of server latency.

    Just an addition the reduce blow/knockback enchants. I guess this is also a factor to the already mentioned lags.

    true, people should be forced to play stuff they don't feel like

    You mean against stuff they can't handle ;)

  • If you play against someone with a PS its not hard to dodge a stun with 2 conditions:

    you're not a total noob

    you and the person performing the stun dont lag or have distance lag relative to each other(ideal <30ms).

    Unless you're an OS player, I dont understand how PS triggers you and bomb doesnt, which can take 179 hp in a 4m radius(even lightning) with below average enchants.

  • --> you need to kill to score ? you only need to do that if they have a bajilion wall in front of the goalpost other than that you can dodge the shots by using unpredictable route or movement

    If you shoot people with a revolver or with a sniper, like was suggested, in most cases yes. Both weapons inflict knockback, meaning unless they are trying to defend right next to the goalpost, they're still going to be in position to intercept you with the second stun unless you finish them off.

    --> how are you going to balance weapons to smth that gives extra stats I mean chips are made to make you stronger. its true that lvl 5 are hard to get but full level 4 can still give you pretty good stats

    That's a very interesting question, or it would be if you meant it as an actual question. Personally I'd go for more damage for swords, more ammo in guns, and stronger pushback for both.


    "Well, the strong cut has the potential to push the opponent in the wrong direction. If people want to play safe, why blame them for it."

    -> I don't blame them for it. I blame the weapon. A well designed weapon gives its user an incentive to explore its depth, which plasma sword fails to do because stun is the correct option in a large majority of defensive scenarios.


    --> boy they give you 3 weapons for a reason you cant just depend on 1 weapon and that is it, i use ps vs 1 maximum 2 ppl .when its more i use another weapon like tb or bat, in unli i use bomb or rl. in games like s4 where you can equip more than 1 weapon it is there for a reason . and that reason is to use more than one weapon to strategically win. i'd suggest watching these videos down and you will see that they dont depend on 1 weapon only but they create a set that they can use to def their base and the how kz actually 1 v 8 not by using 1 weapon but by using 3 weapons together and knowing when to use each one

    How is that relevant to what I said though?


    I dont understand how PS triggers you and bomb doesnt

    It does though. You're assuming things about me that I haven't said. This post doesn't say "PS triggers me and nothing else does". In fact, I have expressed my disgust for lightning bomb in at least 3 threads this year, two of which I have created myself.


    If you play against someone with a PS its not hard to dodge a stun with 2 conditions:

    you're not a total noob

    you and the person performing the stun dont lag or have distance lag relative to each other(ideal <30ms).

    Good ol' "you mad cuz you bad" argument. So, does that mean I have never played against a good player? Because I do play PS myself in my rush set, and I get stuns off against good and bad players alike. As for distance lag, realistically it's going to happen a lot when we have only one server still decently populated.

  • CS and PS are perfect designed weapons which have been there from the start. There is no reason changing them much whatsoever. Actually CS is not even doing enough damage rn and should be slightly buffed. Stun on the other hand can be seen as a problem i guess.

    The only real balancing problem S4 really has are all the insane stats that AP and Esper Chips give you. They should just be removed tbh as they break the game in any way.

  • That's a very interesting question, or it would be if you meant it as an actual question. Personally I'd go for more damage for swords, more ammo in guns, and stronger pushback for both.

    Boy the chips are made to boost ur play style not the weapons you use. rushers mostly use full green. ppl who support uses full blue or orange. people who want to get kills have either shiny set to get pen or red set. and other ppl use mixed sets on there prefered stats they wanna boost.((thats is what ive seen))

    If you shoot people with a revolver or with a sniper, like was suggested, in most cases yes. Both weapons inflict knockback, meaning unless they are trying to defend right next to the goalpost, they're still going to be in position to intercept you with the second stun unless you finish them off.

    Are you that bad at movement or cant you head jump or cant you predict when and where hits gonna land ? personally ,i love to use bomb to destroy their balance and killing a senty if there is one.


    How is that relevant to what I said though?

    things in ()'s are things i use and my opinion.


    BOY you said A well designed weapon gives its user an incentive to explore its depth, which plasma sword fails to do because stun is the correct option in a large majority of defensive scenarios. and i was saying that the game gives you the choice to make a set of 3 weapons to fill the flaws of each other, meaning a weapon for close range (like revo, sg , ag, a preffered melee) and a 2nd weapon for long range (semi , smash, preffered sniper), and a third weapon that either boosted ur movement speed (dag, hg , vs, ib) or one that helps you def (sentry or nell) and a skill that also plays a role in ur play style (like sp mastery for rushing, sheild for supporting ).

  • Boy the chips are made to boost ur play style not the weapons you use. rushers mostly use full green. ppl who support uses full blue or orange. people who want to get kills have either shiny set to get pen or red set. and other ppl use mixed sets on there prefered stats they wanna boost.((thats is what ive seen))

    How is that relevant to what I was saying (x2)? I'm telling you, chips and enchants (red and blue specifically, maybe green) have given a certain advantage to rushers against melee weapons that do not stun and guns that don't explode. If you buff those weapons where they can fill their defensive role as consistently as they used to, then some of the damage caused by the chips invasion will be repaired.


    Are you that bad at movement or cant you head jump or cant you predict when and where hits gonna land ? personally ,i love to use bomb to destroy their balance and killing a senty if there is one.

    This argument is unrelated to the bit you've quoted. And it's a bad one. First off, bomb is a weapon any respectable player should stay away from as it is OP, requires no skill and is frustrating to play against. Then, all melee weapons are somewhat predictable, so according to what you are saying a good player should never ever get hit by a sword, right? Except that when you're trying to score, the situation changes. You're low on time because you want to score before the rest of the enemy team respawns/comes back, and low on stamina, and if you are trying to score against several players, they can attack in a pattern that you would not be able to dodge. In either case, you have to take risks (because feinting a PS user and all of that is time consuming). That's where stun is strong, because it's game over if you get hit by it + the enemy team gets the fumbi (and its hitbox is quite large if you haven't noticed), while you'll still be fine getting hit by other attacks depending on the circumstances.

    BOY you said A well designed weapon gives its user an incentive to explore its depth, which plasma sword fails to do because stun is the correct option in a large majority of defensive scenarios. and i was saying that the game gives you the choice to make a set of 3 weapons to fill the flaws of each other, meaning a weapon for close range (like revo, sg , ag, a preffered melee) and a 2nd weapon for long range (semi , smash, preffered sniper), and a third weapon that either boosted ur movement speed (dag, hg , vs, ib) or one that helps you def (sentry or nell) and a skill that also plays a role in ur play style (like sp mastery for rushing, sheild for supporting ).

    Again, how is that relevant to what I was saying? How does the fact that you have three weapons available and can make them work together compensate for the fact that in its current state, plasma sword does not give any incentive for players to explore its depth?