Questions to Karasakal

  • 1) If you are not able to patch anything yet, could you at least create something like a to-do list of things that will definitely come in the future or balance changes that will take effect soon?

    2) If you really want to rescue the game, please follow this advice:


    Remove any game elements from the game that makes a player unable to move. Some obvious examples are the stun and the bind effect. You don't have to trust me, but you surely can trust the overwatch developers and millions of overwatch players. Their developers made the same mistake in the early days as well and quickly learned why it is bad to remove a player's ability to move, doesn't matter for how long. There is currently only one real stun effect in the entire game in overwatch, which only lasts for half of a second and is only available for one hero. As you can see, players find it extremely unsatisfying to not being able to move or do some sort of dodging. But it's not only unsatisfying for the player; it slows down the entire gameplay A LOT and in S4L this even has a much greater impact as in overwatch. You can observe this effect in OS (PS Stun, CS Stun) as well as in unlimited mode (bind). Please, for the sake of the game, follow this advice and make S4 League fast paced again.

  • There is currently only one real stun effect in the entire game in overwatch, which only lasts for half of a second and is only available for one hero.

    Mei's primary fire, Mei's ult, McCree's Flashbang, Roadhog's Hook, Brigitte's Shield Bash and I probably missed something.

  • Those mechanics are essential for the game. Without them stuff like anchoring and dashing into the goal will be unstoppable.

    The only real issue is probably getting stunlocked by PS but that can get worked out somehow.

  • Mei's primary fire, Mei's ult, McCree's Flashbang, Roadhog's Hook, Brigitte's Shield Bash and I probably missed something.

    Please read everything again. Stunned = Not being able to move anymore at all and having no chance or mechanic to free yourself. The only stun in overwatch therefore is McCree's flashbang. I was not talking about effects that slow you down, push you or freeze you over a longer period of time.

  • Those mechanics are essential for the game. Without them stuff like anchoring and dashing into the goal will be unstoppable.

    The only real issue is probably getting stunlocked by PS but that can get worked out somehow.

    I don't agree with that. The majority of anchoring attempts are not taken down by stuns. Also, the CS block effect could be changed into a push in the opposite direction, you would still be able to defend dashing attempts.

  • Although the railgun slow-down is almost a stun because of the very low movement speed, I don't consider it as a stun. And I'm sure there are already plans to remove that effect.

  • You mentioned bind in your list. So Zarya's Grav would be comparable. Also, Rein's Shatter makes you unable to move. Same as his charge as he pins you.

    Both the Hook and the Shield Bash have an integrated stun btw. And the freeze not only slows you down but also is able to completely freeze you so you can't move anymore.


    Also, please do not triple post. Just put everything into one.


    In case it's not clear: I disagree with this proposal. Though I would like to see the to-do list you mentioned in your very first post.

  • Of course, ultimates like the two first attacks that you have mentioned do have a temporary "unfair" and stronger effect on the enemy, but they have an average cooldown of a couple of minutes, on the contrary S4 League's bind has no cooldown on failed attempts and a several second cooldown on successful attempts. That's a pretty important difference. I would rather compare the F Skills in S4 League with the ultimates of overwatch, not the normal abilities.

    And regarding the other attacks like the freezing, hooking or pinning: They have the potential of stunning you, but you can counter them pretty easily with your own abilities or with abilities of your team mates. Also, those are not really effective anymore in professional overwatch games. But if you look at the average "professional S4 League match", you will notice a permanent overuse of the bind skill and in OS an overuse of the PS / CS stun. I would even say that at least 90% of all attack attempts are countered by stuns.


    S4 League's core feature is the agile and dynamic movement and this should be the focus of the game.

  • If this was meant for Kara, why'd you open it in a public forum area? Why not PM him?


    Anyways stun has a place in this game. This is S4, and not OW. While I disagree with the idea of stun locking in the first place, I wouldn't want stun itself to be removed. The PS would become much less effective if it couldn't stun players. The Sentry Nell would be down right useless if stun was completely removed also. The best way to counter stun is to not let yourself get stunned in the first place. Most, (if not all) stun attacks in the game are pretty slow to execute.


    Edit: Oh and missing a Bind does have a price, your SP. Generally when players focus on binding they have to stop shooting until they're successful. If they miss several times they're just leaving themselves open. Btw Bind cannot bypass Shield or Block.

  • If this was meant for Kara, why'd you open it in a public forum area? Why not PM him?


    Anyways stun has a place in this game. This is S4, and not OW. While I disagree with the idea of stun locking in the first place, I wouldn't want stun itself to be removed. The PS would become much less effective if it couldn't stun players. The Sentry Nell would be down right useless if stun was completely removed also. The best way to counter stun is to not let yourself get stunned in the first place. Most, (if not all) stun attacks in the game are pretty slow to execute.

    Because other players may be interested in the answers as well?


    And it seems like you didn't get my point about overwatch. I took it as an example why it's bad to interrupt the flow of a game and how it made millions of players complain in the past.


    And please, try to remain neutral. You may are used to the stun in S4 League because it always was there, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

  • And to sum it up: Players don't want to loose control over their character. There are plenty of ways on how to defend attackers, a good start might be to use Guns. And for special cases like OS matches: If you can't defend someone properly by using weapons like the bat or the plasma sword slashes, you might have to improve your actual skills to aim and hit a person.

  • What's your problem with that? As you can tell by my past forum activity I'm not trying to farm my post count higher, I'm just using it to add a seperated comment to the topic. I can't see why any normal reader would have a problem with that, besided the people that want to play the forum police.

  • What's your problem with that? As you can tell by my past forum activity I'm not trying to farm my post count higher, I'm just using it to add a seperated comment to the topic. I can't see why any normal reader would have a problem with that, besided the people that want to play the forum police.

    It is in the Forum rules so please stay neutral and do like everyone else.

    You may are used in creating consecutive posts because it was always possible, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

  • I would like this conversation to stay on-topic, so please feel free to explain me in a private message why it's a bad thing to add more than one consecutive constructive post to a topic.

  • Because other players may be interested in the answers as well?


    And it seems like you didn't get my point about overwatch. I took it as an example why it's bad to interrupt the flow of a game and how it made millions of players complain in the past.


    And please, try to remain neutral. You may are used to the stun in S4 League because it always was there, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing.

    I did get your points, I just have a different opinion. Interrupting the enemies flow is a tactic. If a player's complaining that means it's effective. All this sounds like to me is "I'm tired of being stunned in S4, just remove it completely".


    I am remaining neutral. There was no hostility in my post; nor is there in this one. I hope you don't take other viewpoints that conflict with yours as hostility. xD

  • I would like this conversation to stay on-topic, so please feel free to explain me in a private message why it's a bad thing to add more than one consecutive constructive post to a topic.

    Answered that already.


    Well a advice to 2):

    You actually have the ability to make your own rules with room titles. And with that you actually have 2 pros. The first one is you can test it and see how it is going. The second one is that everyone that doesn't want to play without stun/bind isn't forced to play without these forever.

  • I don't agree with that. The majority of anchoring attempts are not taken down by stuns. Also, the CS block effect could be changed into a push in the opposite direction, you would still be able to defend dashing attempts.

    It was just an example. The game is driven by mechanics like flinch, stun, push and so on due to how fast the game is. Without any of these you will hard time killing anything on time. Regarding the CS, it may get some tweaks (slight cooldown before being able to use it again etc) but remember that being stunned by it is entirely your own fault. There are also attacks that passes through revenge as well.

  • In my opinion stuns and other cc should exist but they should not be chainable by a single person, stuff like the constant push from the rg or stun into stun into stun from the ps are quite annoying.


    For me the current problem is reduced to

    Rg chain shots

    lightniing bombs sucking you dry of sp and still being able to insta ko you (lets not even mention mk2)

    ib boost (which i believe the correct fix is to increase sp not to lower the boost)



    Foxtailgirl im not really good at the game tho. Foxtailgirl

  • I kinda agree.

  • You don't have to trust me, but you surely can trust the overwatch developers and millions of overwatch players. Their developers made the same mistake in the early days as well and quickly learned why it is bad to remove a player's ability to move, doesn't matter for how long.

    Koreans used too much micro, so blizzard should remove micro from starcraft 2 as the rest of the world with a few exeptions cant beat them.

    Max levels in world of warcraft are too broken, blizzard should nerf so that all levels are the same so that everyone is level 1.

    The characters on league of legends, dota and heroes of the storm have some skills that are hard to handle or easy to use, so lets ask the companies to have only 1 character.

    CS sniper guns are too OP, riffles are too OP, handguns are OP, grenades are OP, lets remove everything so that everyone can play fair with only knives.


    Lets remove guns from star wars because theres lightsabers.

    Lets remove alien races from star trek because we already got humans.

    Lets remove base building from rts games because people cant handle it.

    Lets remove mods from games, because some people are too dumb to know how to use them.


    Since you suggested to removed stun, then lets also suggest to remove sp, because why do you need sp if you dont need to dodge your enemy?

  • And could you please explain your opinion?



    Did you ever hear of the word unbalanced? Since stuns (binds) are heavily more used than any other skill or attack in the game, they are by definition unbalanced. Imagine there would be one hero in overwatch that has an AOE attack which stuns every enemy for multiple seconds, with only a 2-3 second cooldown. Does your logic still apply?


    Or me and millions of competitive players are just wrong. Why not add a stun gun with unlimited ammo to the game? I mean since every player can pick it and it's very effective; it must be good, right? (Alert: Could contain irony)



    It was just an example. The game is driven by mechanics like flinch, stun, push and so on due to how fast the game is. Without any of these you will hard time killing anything on time. Regarding the CS, it may get some tweaks (slight cooldown before being able to use it again etc) but remember that being stunned by it is entirely your own fault. There are also attacks that passes through revenge as well.

    I hope you are joking. Every action that can be taken by the attacking player can also be made by the defending team PLUS having full SP, cover and a height advantage. And it seems like you don't get the point about the stun. It totally disrupts the combat flow by making the other player unable to interact with the game. What do you say to my suggestion that the CS block could push the player some meters away and damage him, instead of stunning him?

  • Also, don't forget the aspect of Fun. Right now OS is basically avoiding the stun of your enemy. That's it. The entire match revolves about not getting stunned. Is this really fun? What about a slightly more dynamic combat, where you really have to hit your enemy and him being able to make some sort of counter, that you again have to counter. I think we both agree that this would be a lot more fun and some currently unused weapons would finally get their place in the game as well.

  • Also, don't forget the aspect of Fun. Right now OS is basically avoiding the stun of your enemy. That's it. The entire match revolves about not getting stunned. Is this really fun? What about a slightly more dynamic combat, where you really have to hit your enemy and him being able to make some sort of counter, that you again have to counter. I think we both agree that this would be a lot more fun and some currently unused weapons would finally get their place in the game as well.

    That is why you play unlimited mode instead of OS since the game is balanced around unlimited.

  • That is why you play unlimited mode instead of OS since the game is balanced around unlimited.

    First of all, OS is a very important part of this game, which makes the game stand out from the crowd of other games. I don't see why we would have to keep the problem in one part of the game and just tell players to play something completely different which they might not even like. Also, please don't forget that there is still the bind skill in unlimited mode, which is used by mostly every player and is pretty easy to hit because it only requires mechanical aim. I would still like to hear your opinion about my suggestion to exchange the stun with something that is also useful for defending, because that seems to be your only point pro-stun right now.

  • First of all, OS is a very important part of this game, which makes the game stand out from the crowd of other games. I don't see why we would have to keep the problem in one part of the game and just tell players to play something completely different which they might not even like. Also, please don't forget that there is still the bind skill in unlimited mode, which is used by mostly every player and is pretty easy to hit because it only requires mechanical aim. I would still like to hear your opinion about my suggestion to exchange the stun with something that is also useful for defending, because that seems to be your only point pro-stun right now.

    Bind rewards aiming (you can still jump and fire back). It can feel cheap at times but is not even near OP or anything.

    You can also use shield to prevent being hit by it or defend yourself from ranged attacks after.

  • Did you ever hear of the word unbalanced? Since stuns (binds) are heavily more used than any other skill or attack in the game, they are by definition unbalanced.

    I also really like to jump ingame. When I want to get somewhere quickly I use jumps instead of normal running or just walking. So jumping is unbalanced.

  • I have nothing against you efk , but you are saying some strange things.


    First of all, bind isn't overplayed in unlimited. In a v6 game it's common to only get one or none. 30hp+ is an overplayed skill tho.


    Then about the stun, still speaking about unlimited (which is still the main s4 mode), well you can easily kill someone trying to stun you if you are using some guns and you are not aimless. I have way more problem with bombs that are undodgable and kills you from eveywhere on it hitbox.

  • Stun is definitely not overplayed in SO if anything it's Exo Scythe, 3/6 or more players per team would have it on them all the time and it always boils down to who gets that right click hit first.


    and then there's bind in Unlimiteds probably 1 or 2 at most per game? definitely not overused tho

  • Lightning bomb only slows you though, doesn't suck the sp dry just saying

  • And could you please explain your opinion?


    Well i say stuns balance the game in some way, im talking mainly unlimited here since i don't play sword only but in td for example stun is an useful way to get through some very annoying builds, i don't use PS but i used fist before and when i saw hmg + shield combo all i tried to do was stun him and he is out (or run away because i cant fight that)



    i also like how you can stun in important areas to completely ruin a play (which feels horrible sometimes) but at least for me it doesn't feel unfair.

    I cant really explain how i feel that much but it just feels really bad when something feels unfair, right now only boost, lightning bombs and rg feel that way to me.


    Stuff like red F skill feels too strong but i barely see it so i guess its not (or maybe its because its very expensive to get)


    what feels unfair is when i do try to play SO and i get stunned and stunned and stunned and stunned... and dead. like at least just stun me then right click me to death. for me its a different feeling, getting bat away from just about to score, than getting sniped over and over again once i leave base after a td. once feels like "dam you got me" the other feels like "nerf this please gods, listen to my prayer".



    Foxtailgirl

  • Lightning bomb only slows you though, doesn't suck the sp dry just saying

    I am not even sure why they added that on the first place. The LB was already the better choice over EB anyway.

    Also the MK version not only drains your SP, slows you down but also makes you unable to jump too.

  • I am not even sure why they added that on the first place. The LB was already the better choice over EB anyway.

    Also the MK version not only drains your SP, slows you down but also makes you unable to jump too.

    well at least they removed the none-sp regen until the effect stops thing

  • It is clear that crowd control skills are heavily overpowered in this game but I disagree with the fact that they should be deleted. Bind for example is the only alternative to a sword for someone who wants to play with 3 guns or 2 guns and a dagger and deleting it would make that kind of setup impossible. Just stop the MK2 items and the huge spam.

  • It is clear that crowd control skills are heavily overpowered in this game but I disagree with the fact that they should be deleted. Bind for example is the only alternative to a sword for someone who wants to play with 3 guns or 2 guns and a dagger and deleting it would make that kind of setup impossible. Just stop the MK2 items and the huge spam.

    The only crowd control thing that is an issue currently are the bombs. Other than using metallic, there is really no play around them. If you don't move, you die. if you move, the enemy scores a TD.

  • "Since stuns (binds) are heavily more used than any other skill or attack in the game, they are by definition unbalanced."


    So because a majority of players likes to use X weapon or Skill makes it unbalanced? jesus... Then Overwatch has to remove female characters.


    This guy is complaining that stun is OP in meele... meele! Seriusly... that mode would actualy be totaly broken without stun as theres no ranged weapon/skill and the only thing you need to do is get passed by the enemy with a dagger or boots.

    Nowadays the only decent defense in meele is to stun the enemy, because of the heavy buffs of HP and SP, either that, or 1/2 hit kill weapons.



    This is why I havent login in a long time... I got these kids complaining about these easy things, have you ever done a 1v4? Have you ever faced the current RL? How about a good stacked team?


    At first I thought you were talking about the railgun and bombs, on wich I belive they can still need a few small balance chances, sames applies to some other weapons, but you are seriusly complaining about meele in OS? is PS stun that hard to dodge? Or do you enjoy to hug close iron fist player? No wait! you must be complaining how CS is able to block and stun aggainst some weapons! Right?


    Bah, Im done with this thread unless I wanna farm a few more posts, while good suggestions are welcome, stuff like removing content thats been around for years and years is basicly killing the game, whats next? Want to remove the soundtrack? Remove the first sets? Delete the maps with the exeption of station-2?.


    I mean... read again what you wrote.... you are seriously suggesting to remove stuff like bind and ps stun from the game... Thats like asking to remove an iconic character from overwatch. Heck, since you brought overwatch to this thread of a game thats completly different from it, Ill tell you this, what happened if Blizzard removed your 3 most favorite overwatch characters, just because someone had said they cant deal with them?



    And regarding your "The entire match revolves about not getting stunned." Thats like saying harry potter revolves about not getting hit with a spell, lord of the rings not getting the eagles to fly into murdor and overwatch not being about not getting shot and killing the enemies not completing X objectives.

  • I don't think those should be remove but I have my view on these.

    Bind: Very spammable and Pin down duraction is quite long.

    CS revenge stun: Stun duration is longer than any stun in the game.

    PS: Stun, I don't see any problem with this.

    MK2 LB: I think it range need a decrease.

    LB: Nothing.

    Orange/special chip: Don't see any problem.

    Fist: Think it need a bit more delay on jump stun.

    RG: remove

    Well there is some need a tweak. I think we will get to see these tweak a bit in the future. Hopefully.