Posts by NightSakura

    This thread just reminds me of how balance patches are slower than an extremely elder person trying to cross the street.


    Wish you would include all weapons, skills, chips, s5 and possible full max stats.

    Also keep in mind that not all weapons are suposed to be dmg focus, some weapons are for cround control, others for 1v1, some to stun, some stationable, others focus on speed and mobility.

    I included mobility!

    Very well said, was pointing it out earlier the same thing!

    OK. But who is more dangerous? Good player with vital or good player with boots or anything?


    In most of 1v1 the Boots player will win even if both players are good.


    Why? Damages. Boots can kill easily by a few hits And it has very high range.


    Vital is very low damage and has very low range. You have to have very high precision if you want to be better with this.

    Numbers itself doesn't mean anything, you can have an one shot weapon on your hand but if you can't use it, there's no point in it. The same applies for each weapon itself. There will never be a true balance in a game. You can't also compare two entirely different weapons, dagger and vital shock, in your case, damage-wise. Different weapons, different movesets, different ranges, different methods, different situations to use and not use. What makes a weapon overpowered is what they have to offer, such as boots' dash in TD and what not but even then that consumes alot of SP, so.

    Hit the dagger in the group of players and do the same with vital.

    Im not going to judge anyone, you play the way you want, but you only limit yourself by not allowing urself to train agianst other weapons to maybe get better at it or learn counter them. We have weapons here to use, not to make a rule for them and bann them.


    It was about 2 years ago now, I couldn`t find the post for you, so it would be hard to recap now, as it feels normal nowadays.

    2 years ago they only changed a little range of bat

    Problem is all you and we see is numbers, we dont know how they are calculated or what algorithm is behind them until we get some official weapon analytics, we cant really judge on what could be nerfed or buffed, right now all we have is use experience .


    Also we can say that some weapons have advantage upon another like what hella mentioned the EXO upper cut, but the CS counters it well, also it could give enemies an advantage too as they wil be lifted in air, where they could just block further incoming attacks or etc.. the boots speed is something that no other weapon has, but I like how the weapons are different and in my opinion after playing in OS for more than 8 years, that they are good now


    People who learnt how to play against most of if not all of the weapons and found a good counter for all of them or even learnt how to play with most of the weapons on a master level, they don`t feel such a balance is required. There are a lot players stuck with CPD and they will struggle against all weapons and only see a spam room with confusion that makes no sense for them. Im really not pointing out anyone here, but the only weapon changes I would say would be considerable is the under rated attacks such as bat right click, vital, TB is interesting, but other can stay.

    Really Vital is so underpowered that anyone would kill vital shock's player 2-3 times before he did.

    I agree that most of the weapons need change but some of them needs change beyond just damage numbers. They needs rework too.

    The right click scythe for example is not ok at all. It provides too much mobility without having a real conter.

    The boots need to have some speed reduction and improved combat abilities. They are usless for anything but scoring TDs.

    Those are just 2 examples.

    I agree but we need to start from the most important

    Better balance = less CPD rooms, less weapon restrictions, less banned weapons

    latest?cb=20120502141348latest?cb=20110117235559No needed changes

    latest?cb=20110506161510Whirlwind: Increase damage 14/24/34 --> 20/30/40.

    Reason: Underpowered, very weak attack, easy to be blocked.

    200?cb=20110624124352Right attack: Decrease damage 50/25/62,5 --> 50/25/25. Add 20 SP consume. Recompense this by increase of range of normal attack by 25%.

    Reason: Overpowered, abused, often it kills with 1 hit and is too easy to spam. Yes for powerfull from close range but no for 1 hit kill. 100 damage from close is enough.


    We shouldn't spam by dagger so much



    latest?cb=20140112140206Normal attack damage 15/30 --> 30/15. 30 damage before dash, 15 damage after dash.

    Reason: Lower damage for non-precision attacks from far.

    Jump attack is easy to hit,


    250?cb=20130813171421 Normal attack damage 60--->40; Jump attack: Add 20 SP consume and Blow effect, increase delay time by 500ms //OR// damage 45--->20 + Stun.

    Reason: Normal attack overpovered. Jump attack needs a blow or stun. Blow prevents against spam. If stun will be added it needs a very low damage


    250?cb=20120703065605250?cb=20120703062853250?cb=20131004120007No needed changes at this moment

    Reason: Katana is a little spammable weapon but the damages are balanced correctly

    Sigma is powerfull but with many restrictions and SP usage.

    Scythe is little powerfull but not so much compared to other weapons. Maybe it should be nerfed but it's not important at this moment.


    latest?cb=20150205171605Normal attack: Replace 3-combo by single kick-attack with blow effect like in stormbat with 30 damage.

    Jump attack: Damage 45--->30 (crytical 90--->60)


    Reason: Normal attack useless and underpowered. We need something similar like stormbat. It's a boots it should kick players off.

    Jump attack was created like counter sword's jump attack and it should has identical damages like counter.


    latest?cb=20150412030822No needed changes at this moment

    latest?cb=20140112155547All damages increased by 50%. No SP usage at Strong and Jump attack. Maybe a little stun at strong attack.

    Reason: Useless weapon, its nearly impossible to kill with it.

    And

    It won't make this weapon overpovered.








    I think that we should rebalance breaker like this:

    Normal attack: 60 ---> 45 (like before)

    Jump attack: 45 ---> 20 + Stun 0,5-2s depends of range (plasma have 1s-3,5s) + SP consume (20-30 per attack)


    Why stun should be shorter than plasma's stun?

    Plasma's jump attack - about 500ms + 1000ms delay

    Breaker's jump attack - about 300 ms + 550ms delay


    Or we can add blow because it's prevents spam.


    Hm... about daggers. I don't know propably I would change 50/25/63 to 50/25/25 to make 100 damage from very close and only 25 damage from very far away.

    Only way to rebalance in 100% is:

    Implement a program inside S4 league which will collect data about:

    -Kill/death with each weapon

    -% of hits/miss of each attack

    -% of kills of each attack


    If kill/death with individual weapon is too high or too low we analize individual attacks:

    -Too much/too less hit chance - we decrease/increase range

    -Too much/too less kills - decrease/increase damage

    Hi. This is a final comparision of sword weapons. All depends mainly on players skills but... some weapons are so overpowered that even a weak player is able to easy kill a strong player by a simply spamming. But some weapons are also wrongfully underpowered.


    What is OP and what is UP? You should judge it by yourself.


    I created this post in order to:

    1. Undestand by players how the weapons works.

    2. Discussion about weapon's rebalance.


    My ratio is very simply:

    (Damage x Range / Time of attack)

    Damage: Standard damage without players bonuses.

    I set up a chance for crytical to about 30% so Damage = 0,7*Normal Damage + 0,3*Crytical Damage. I set up also additional bonus for blow effect (Wall hit).

    Range: Max range to hit the player includes dash range. Height and Width was not included.

    Time: Time of attack included all the delays.



    Let's start from overall without any details. Just ratio.

    LJ7wbPf.png

    Yellow = SP usage


    The strongest attacks are Dagger's dash and sigma's SP combo. Both can be easily be blocked by Counter guard. But what if no one has the counter?

    Sigma has many restriction: When you use it you can't change weapon, run and dodge. It also consumes your SP.

    Dagger has any restriction and can deal up to 62,5 damage from 2000 range and 138 damage from 500 range.

    Is Dagger overpowered? You should judge.


    The weakest attacks are Sigma's Strong and Jump Attack, Plasma's Jump attack, Vital shock's Jump attack, Iron Boots' Combo and Bat whirlwind.

    Plasma's and Fist's Jumps aren't weak. It deals less damage but it gives a stun which is very powerfull but can't be easily calculated.

    Sigma's attacks are weak but SP attacks are powerfull.

    Iron Boots combo is very weak. Its just a too much nerfed attack. Iron boots was very powerfull in past and developers makes it weaker. In case of that attack - too much weak.


    About nerfing: Counter in past was dealing 45 damage in jump and strong attacks. Boots and Breaker was dealing 45 damage too. Half of weapons was dealing 45 damage in past.

    But only counter was nerfed to 30 damage. Its little funny.


    After Iron Boots' rebalance fail the new weapon - Vital Shock was created to be a weak weapon. I would say - too weak and it should be nerfed. Why?

    Plasma's weak attack can deal 17 damage. Identical but Vital Shock's attack can deal only 10 damage. Similar case in the Jump attack.

    Vital shock's strong attack deal only 20 damages and it consumes SP! It also has a sensivity of mouse restrictions. Why dagger's dash attack do not consume SP but vital's strong did?


    ***Time for details***


    I added also a Duel Ratio. It tell how strong is weapon when a enemy expect the attack.

    What's the difference beetwen Duel and Normal Ratio?

    Duel Ratio includes FFF (Fast Fingers First factor).


    FFF tells about a chance to succesfully attack when both players are attacking in the same time. More FFF - less chance to being canceled by a simply weak attack from any weapon.

    FFF = Time to deal damage / 240ms (The average time to deal damage)


    WEAK ATTACKS

    zoevZ1r.png

    D3LJtFq.png


    How to read this?

    Some attacks has a damage before and after dash

    Example: Twin Blade deals 15 damage before dash and 30 after dash.

    Dash are often long (1000-2000 range).


    STRONG ATTACKS

    u64bJN3.png


    JUMP ATTACKS

    Fh4W1eW.png


    SPECIAL ATTACKS

    LPMLXH0.png

    iWjwJmA.png




    FAQ

    Q. How?

    A. Just lua files + some checking on training mode


    Q. What about delay?

    A. All attacks have different delay times. I added delay time only to the last combo attack.

    If you will attack 1 or 2 times and stop there will be also delay time (but shorter than after full 3-4 combo).


    Q. What about blow?

    A. Blow effect can throw player to the wall. Hitting the wall = additional 15 damage. I set up a chance for hit wall to about 30% so I decided to add +5 damage to all attacks with blow effect.


    Note: Iron Boots' dash has 3xBlow effect so it can gives you additional 45 damage if you will hit close and next to the wall. Also Sigma Blade (SP) has blow effect in each combo attack. All the rest of weapons has blow effect only in the last combo.


    Q. How to makes crytical hit?

    A. In Twin Blade, Katana and Sigma there is random chance for crytical: TB - 20%, Sigma - 10%, Katana - 30%.

    In rest weapon you have to properly aim to activate crytical hit.