Feedback needed - Weapons, Basic

  • I wouldn't call the HMG op at all, it might be a rare pick even. People didn't learn how to play against it properly. Because it seems to be off meta.

    Obviously, because the weapons mentioned usually shut those down too.

  • hmg is banned from many rooms because even when u got only one it's a team destroyer. In v5/v6 it's such a cancer weap to deal against in both def and atk, they're stacked with their team not to mention their shield skill which is unbeatable unless you got bombs.

    And bombs are banned from 90% of the rooms because it's the cancerest weap with ib to deal against.

    Obviously needs a nerf.

  • I just wonder if the HMG is so "OP" why barely anyone uses it unlike rg, bombs and boots? Having 2 hmg users in one team is rarely a thing but how many are using rg and bombs? Almost everyone.

    you shouldnt really look at it by how much it is used. you should look at it of how much it can do with such little skill. for example: all you do is throw a bomb and kill the entire team, press f and kill three players instantly, hold down mouse 1 and kill everyone, press right click and dash past everyone in a second. people probably dont use hmg because it isn't fun to use, even if it is op. no one wants to sit in base all day and wait until people come up ramp for you to actually do anything. this is the same mindset with healing. even tho it is op, no one wants to do it because they want to take the glory for themselves. bad players shouldnt be able to amass a lot of points just by using certain things.

  • you shouldnt really look at it by how much it is used. you should look at it of how much it can do with such little skill. for example: all you do is throw a bomb and kill the entire team, press f and kill three players instantly, hold down mouse 1 and kill everyone, press right click and dash past everyone in a second. people probably dont use hmg because it isn't fun to use, even if it is op. no one wants to sit in base all day and wait until people come up ramp for you to actually do anything. this is the same mindset with healing. even tho it is op, no one wants to do it because they want to take the glory for themselves.

    Then what is the issue?

    If it is not used then it is not really OP if people prefer using something else over it.


    By this logic block, sentry, nell, AG are all OP too.

  • I never looked at HMG as being OP and i have been playing on and off since 2010 or so. I will say its a strong weapon but not broken. RG, bomb, F skills etc etc are game breaking mechanics. But hmg has its draw backs.


    Even though its the only +1 weap I use in a match sometimes just cause of its raw power, but it has drawbacks and situational usage makes it non broken IMO. There are ways to fight it as mentioned time & time again.


    If you are a brain dead player that tries to 1v1 out gun a hmg at close range or rush into melee running in a straight line then dont blame the weapon. It's a gatling gun its SUPPOSE to be strong. But "op" I dont think so.

  • you shouldnt really look at it by how much it is used. you should look at it of how much it can do with such little skill. for example: all you do is throw a bomb and kill the entire team, press f and kill three players instantly, hold down mouse 1 and kill everyone, press right click and dash past everyone in a second. people probably dont use hmg because it isn't fun to use, even if it is op. no one wants to sit in base all day and wait until people come up ramp for you to actually do anything. this is the same mindset with healing. even tho it is op, no one wants to do it because they want to take the glory for themselves. bad players shouldnt be able to amass a lot of points just by using certain things.

    What's most used? Meta weapons/skills that're the "most effective", and most overpowered.

    What weapons need to be balanced more than others? See my above sentence.


    If I; someone who is mostly an OS player can defeat HMG's with melee, and have no issues no one else should be complaining. It's got a slow start up time, and its long range sucks; so use that knowledge to your advantage. Better yet; take weapons & skills that counter it easier if you have such a problem with it.


    Btw what guns take skill? Aren't all the Rifles & Heavy guns just point and shoot? Yes? "Oh but you need aim with Rifles"; yeah but they're made for medium to long range; which HMG sucks with. Gattling guns aren't meant for accuracy. They're designed to be powerful in their prefered range; (point blank to medium). If an entire team dies from of an HMG; then they probably deserved to.


    Least HMG can't wallshoot. cx

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • I will get hate for this but heres my choices, take them or leave them ^^.


    Plasma Sword - Fine as it is.


    Counter Sword - Fine as it is.


    Storm Bat - Fine as it is.


    Spy Dagger - Lower the damage of the right click and make it only hit once, not three times.


    Twin Blades - Fine but maybe remove the delay between the left click combo.


    Breaker - (I will get hate for this) - Lower the damage of the left click and make the speed and delay of the jump attack slower (like the storm bat)


    Katana - Fine as it is.


    Sigma Blade - Fine as it is but perhaps make the heavy attack it does in awakened form (Hold left click - The forward front flip attack) can break revenge, and remove the useless heavy attack when its not in awakened form.


    Iron Fists - Lower the damage of the left click slightly a bit?


    Iron Boots - Lower or remove the delay between its attacks, if you miss your kinda left open for too long.


    Vital Shock - Increase the basic attack damage, allow the pull attack (hold left click) to break revenge like it did before.


    SMG - Fine as it is.


    Semi Rifle - Fine as it is.


    Gauss Rifle - Fine as it is.


    Cannonade - Fine as it is.


    Rail Gun - (I will get hate for this) - Get rid of the knock back from uncharged attacks and put it back on fully charged shots, make it longer to charge each shot (Like the rocket launcher), get rid off the slow effect. Basically make it as it was before it got ''buffed''.


    Sharpshooter - Fine as it is.


    Smash Rifle - Fine as it is.


    Twin Magnums - Remove the auto aim it has (it always aims for the torso of a target, even if they are far away) and remove the delay of the right click.


    Revolver - Fine as it is.


    Burst Shotgun - Fine as it is.


    Handgun - Fine as it is.


    Air Gun - Give it a bigger ammo capacity or unlimited ammo.


    Rocket Launcher - Fine as it is.


    HMG - Fine as it is.


    LMG - Slightly raise its damage and maybe give it a smaller hit box?


    Assault Rifle - Fine as it is.


    Turret - Fine as it is.


    Homing Rifle - Lower its damage a bit (since its meant to be the weakest gun).


    Spark Rifle - Fine as it is.


    Sentry Gun - Fine as it is but maybe give it unlimited ammo?


    Sentry Nell - Fine as it is but maybe give it unlimited ammo?


    Mind Shock - Slow its attack speed down to what it was before.


    Mind Energy - Fine as it is. (I know people will disagree with this, but i'm a healer so I like healing people quickly ^^)


    Rescue Gun - Either increase its ammo or give it unlimited ammo.


    Earth Bomb - Fine as it is.


    Lightning Bomb - Lower its damage, but make the blast radius bigger?


    MK-II Guass Rifle - Increase the shotgun attack a bit and lower the SP cost.


    MK-II Lightning Bomb - Lower its damage and blast radius but keep the sp drain and slow.


    MK-II LMG - Shrink the hit box.


    MK-II Turret - Fine as it is.


    HP/SP Skills - Fine as they are.


    Duel HP/SP Mastery - Fine as it is.


    Block/Wall - Increase it's hp, revert it back to what it was before, its pretty much useless right now, even the unique ones.


    Shield - Fine as it is. Maybe allow you to keep your shield on while using Mind Energy? Not Mind Shock though.


    Wings - Fine as it is.


    Detect - Fine as it is.


    Invisible - Fine as it is but maybe remove the initial cost of using invisible and just let it drain your SP from max.


    Metal - Increase its heal rate from 4 to 5/6 hp? Decrease the delay after using Metal?


    Bind - Fine as it is, but maybe add a effect to bind multiple people if they are close enough to your main target?


    Anchoring - Fine as it is.


    Unique Hp/SP Mastery - Fine as it is but add the option to remove that god awful orange ring effect that always surrounds you.


    These are a few personal choices here but I thought I just throw them out there.


    Add a option to remove FP/AP stats from fights, like in Arena Mode.

    Add a option to ban certain weapons/skills in rooms, it will help keep people who can't or don't read room titles.

    Fix the exploit of wallshooting.


    These are my choices. What do you guys think? And please be nice :<

  • I was with you till that point lol. No way under any circumstance bombs should have a bigger blast radius than they do now. Esp with the state of these servers (coming from an american player).


    Also if they lower homing dmg dont you think they should do the same for spark? Heals should be reverted to the way they were before they were buffed IMO and the limited ammo on sentries & neils are fine. Makes people think where they place them. Strategize instead of having an infinite amount & spamming em all over the place.

  • I was with you till that point lol. No way under any circumstance bombs should have a bigger blast radius than they do now. Esp with the state of these servers (coming from an american player).


    Also if they lower homing dmg dont you think they should do the same for spark? Heals should be reverted to the way they were before they were buffed IMO and the limited ammo on sentries & neils are fine. Makes people think where they place them. Strategize instead of having an infinite amount & spamming em all over the place.

    Point taken ^^

  • Just addressing a point some people seem to be making. Just because a weapon / strategy is easily countered by other weapons doesn't mean it's not toxic for the game. Switching is impossible after the first half. I don't want to lose just because I failed to bring one specific weapon that I didn't know I would need. At this point it's tantamount to throwing a coin to determine who wins the match.


    For instance, I hear people saying the interaction between HMG and power shield is fair because people have access to bombs and boots and such, but if somebody gets shut down hard the whole game because of it, would you really tell them that they're to blame for not playing bomb or boots? That's unreasonable, and if you want weapon diversity it's also counterproductive.

  • but if somebody gets shut down hard the whole game because of it, would you really tell them that they're to blame for not playing bomb or boots?

    The use of rg, bombs and ib is way higher than the use of hmg, so assuming those ppl use these to counter hmg is just laughable.


    Not able to switch can be a problem indeed but that is why you have 3 weapon slots instead of just 1 so you can choose your gear more wisely even if you don't know what you are going to face. It is not perfect but that is the best we got so far + the half times.

  • The use of rg, bombs and ib is way higher than the use of hmg, so assuming those ppl use these to counter hmg is just laughable.

    Sorry I have no idea what that means. What do you say I am assuming?

    Not able to switch can be a problem indeed but that is why you have 3 weapon slots instead of just 1 so you can choose your gear more wisely even if you don't know what you are going to face.

    If you think there exist builds that perform well regardless of what the enemy team is bringing, I would be happy to learn what they are.

  • If you think there exist builds that perform well regardless of what the enemy team is bringing, I would be happy to learn what they are.

    There aren't but you can pick your weapons in a way to serve you in different situation. You don't really have to build a offensive or defensive character excursively. if it happens to Face weapons that you can't fight against withe the current gear, you can still avoid those encounters. Everyone is pretty much in the same boat anyway.

  • There aren't but you can pick your weapons in a way to serve you in different situation. You don't really have to build a offensive or defensive character excursively. if it happens to Face weapons that you can't fight against withe the current gear, you can still avoid those encounters. Everyone is pretty much in the same boat anyway.

    What do you mean when you talk about avoiding encounters in Touch Down (I mean, I assume we're talking about touch down here since you mentioned offence and defense)? When the enemy team is pushing, you gotta defend, or they score. When your team wants to score, you still gotta get through the defense, so you don't exactly get to pick your fight too often either in that case. By the way, how is anyone supposed to avoid an encounter with a rail gun?

    Oh and by the way, there is at least one build that performs well no matter what the enemy team is playing, the only issue is that it's completely cancerous (so either way it's a loss).


    I would like to point out that S4 is a team game.

    Cool. Your point?

  • Cool. Your point?

    I never use rail gun. I simply trust the snipers in my team to contest the enemy snipers. Ofc this doesn't always work.

    Same applies to hmg + shield. You don't have to counter it. It's enough if one of your teammates can counter it.

    Now, I never check the eq of my teammates before a match (bring back old GUI btw!11!) because most of these important weapons (explosives, rail gun) are given in any team that's at least 3 people.

  • What do you mean when you talk about avoiding encounters in Touch Down (I mean, I assume we're talking about touch down here since you mentioned offence and defense)? When the enemy team is pushing, you gotta defend, or they score. When your team wants to score, you still gotta get through the defense, so you don't exactly get to pick your fight too often either in that case. By the way, how is anyone supposed to avoid an encounter with a rail gun?

    Oh and by the way, there is at least one build that performs well no matter what the enemy team is playing, the only issue is that it's completely cancerous (so either way it's a loss).

    Basically staying out of their effective range unless it is absolutely necessary. That doesn't stops you from picking up the ball after a teammate die and then try to score with it or bodyblocking when someone is trying to score etc.


    You can flank snipers assuming they aren't focusing you (and your team is capable to defend on their own).

  • Basically staying out of their effective range unless it is absolutely necessary.

    That's not the part of my message I was hoping that you would try to reply to tbh.

    I'm going to assume that you're being literal when you say "absolutely". Several problems there (in sta-2, at least):
    -Trying to avoid a sniper that hard is extremely inefficient. It means you're only allowed to defend from behind the wall in front of the goalpost in sta-2 since anywhere else is in range of the sniper, which also means you can't steal the ball unless the carrier dies in that area. That's the fastest way to lose.
    -By your own admission, even then the sniper still gets opportunities to get you. Right out of spawn for instance or any time your team wants to make an offensive play.

    You can flank snipers assuming they aren't focusing you (and your team is capable to defend on their own).

    Look, I've had that whole "can you or can you not flank a sniper" conversation before and I don't really want to have it again. It just s*cks, at least in v4 or less. You have to invest time and stamina to get there, and if you get spotted I'd argue the snipers has 90% chance to win the v1 (due to having a spawn with lasers to retreat to, allies that can spawn and help and more often than not using shield). And when you're done with the fight, you might realise that you're heavily out of position unless things worked out in a convenient way for you and your team happens to be pushing.


    Now of course you don't necessarily get spotted and sometimes it's an easy kill, but then they get cautious and you'll find that it's pretty easy for a sniper that is cautious to spot any potential flanker. Flanking a sniper is something that you can do once in a while to keep them on edge, but not a universal response (if they're good, that is).

    I never use rail gun. I simply trust the snipers in my team to contest the enemy snipers. Ofc this doesn't always work.

    Same applies to hmg + shield. You don't have to counter it. It's enough if one of your teammates can counter it.

    Now, I never check the eq of my teammates before a match (bring back old GUI btw!11!) because most of these important weapons (explosives, rail gun) are given in any team that's at least 3 people.

    So, I just need one or several competent teammates who have chosen builds that conveniently cover my weaknesses is what you're saying? I don't disagree with you, but I don't get those often (stacking is evil).

  • It means you're only allowed to defend from behind the wall in front of the goalpost in sta-2

    Well that is why I consider st2 to be a bad map.


    Also I am pretty sure most ppl will already agree that the rg is currently OP so not sure what else do you want me to say. I am talking about in general.

  • Well that is why I consider st2 to be a bad map.


    Also I am pretty sure most ppl will already agree that the rg is currently OP so not sure what else do you want me to say. I am talking about in general.

    All of the maps are bad. Also Sta-2's openness wasn't as much of an issue when RG was balanced (on the contrary, there is value in being able to understand what is happening after a quick glance around from anywhere on the map.


    Oh, I see, I thought you were talking about rail guns when you talked about staying out of their effective range. But the fact remains that if there is a defense, there is a need to break it (or slip through), and if the enemy team attacks, you need to be there to defend it. Somebody needs to pick a fight with the shield HMG that is blocking off the ramp and somebody needs to stop the boot user that is making the whole team look retarded, and if nobody in your team can, then there is no game. I can't control what my team brings into the match (or if my team is even good enough to do stuff on their own).

  • god bless the actual HMG that for so many years has been useless

    It is funny cuz the changes that it got doesn't really change it much. The fire rate was barely changed (from 7 to 7.5 or something like that) and the movement speed still remains the lowest after the Turret and getting bombed is still pretty much a guaranteed hit.

  • It is funny cuz the changes that it got doesn't really change it much. The fire rate was barely changed (from 7 to 7.5 or something like that) and the movement speed still remains the lowest after the Turret and getting bombed is still pretty much a guaranteed hit.

    Pretty sure it has more accurate aim tho

  • It is funny cuz the changes that it got doesn't really change it much. The fire rate was barely changed (from 7 to 7.5 or something like that) and the movement speed still remains the lowest after the Turret and getting bombed is still pretty much a guaranteed hit.

    I'd really like them to make formulas and numbers (possibly also possible positions of the random spray bullets) visible to us. I think that was higher, but would love confirmation from someone with code access and historical knowledge.


    The movementspeed buff while firing was a big one for the HMG, and needed since the game is fast paced.


    Edit: I just tested the pattern. To my surprise, the first few bullets ( don't want to use up so much time as to go through all of it) match this: http://s4league.wikia.com/wiki…_Gun?file=Hmg-pattern.jpg


    so i assume it is stil lthe same pattern through the whole spray. ( I thought they brought a randomspray when they changed it.. well I guess I was wrong there. Thanks for the info, Hella, this caused my balancing post to get corrected)

    1544-signa-png

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Yaita ().

  • The only significant upside of HMG compared to SMG is the ammo count. But as a result, it synergizes way better with shield and healing. I have no issue with the weapon outside of those synergies, and I'd rather see power shield and healing get nerfed instead.

  • I wonder how many people actually read descriptions xD This is just a theory of myself but I think power shield actually got nerfed before it got released (or they just wrote some absurd stuff again). But well. I don't own power shield and I only found 1 video about it where the description is shown in German.

    Google translated it says: Create a shield in front of you that blocks enemy missiles. Can distract enemy missiles and inflict damage on the enemy. Allies who are behind the shield can shoot through it. The shield disappears as soon as a melee attack is executed.

    Could be worse ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


    HMG itself isn't OP. What makes it OP is all the broken stuff around it. But someone already pointed that out.

  • I wonder how many people actually read descriptions xD This is just a theory of myself but I think power shield actually got nerfed before it got released (or they just wrote some absurd stuff again). But well. I don't own power shield and I only found 1 video about it where the description is shown in German.

    Google translated it says: Create a shield in front of you that blocks enemy missiles. Can distract enemy missiles and inflict damage on the enemy. Allies who are behind the shield can shoot through it. The shield disappears as soon as a melee attack is executed.

    Could be worse ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


    HMG itself isn't OP. What makes it OP is all the broken stuff around it. But someone already pointed that out.

    Seems like poor translation. In the EN version it says it deflects projectiles.

  • You know what I want from HMG more than anything else? A sound indicator for when i'm being hit by it, just like almost every other weapon. Balance be damned, I haven't heard myself ever getting hurt by it since day 1. Before they do anything else, i'd think they should fix that first at least.

  • You know what I want from HMG more than anything else? A sound indicator for when i'm being hit by it, just like almost every other weapon. Balance be damned, I haven't heard myself ever getting hurt by it since day 1. Before they do anything else, i'd think they should fix that first at least.

    Yeah, that will definitely be a quality of life change. I was always wondering why they never gave it sound cue for getting hit by it even though it is already very loud while shooting.

  • Yeah, that will definitely be a quality of life change. I was always wondering why they never gave it sound cue for getting hit by it even though it is already very loud while shooting.

    One of the Netspheres' many great mysteries. Perhaps improving much needed quality of life aspects of s4 may help more than any of this weapon debate thus far. It kinda feels like debating how to fix a rickety house on a collapsing sandbank.


    Heck, I think i'd wanna start a thread about QoL suggestions if I wasn't so lazy.

  • Heck, I think i'd wanna start a thread about QoL suggestions if I wasn't so lazy.

    I thought about doing it a while ago. Ima list off a few of my grievances just for fun.

    -The warning messages for your team s*ck. Reset is so far off that I can't reach it quickly when playing, and yet it's the most useful one. It should be possible to hotkey them to F keys at the very least.
    -Remember when the screen didn't get stuck on the respawn area when the enemy team scored? I want that again.
    -Why are the two loading screens separate (with the server selection screen inbetween)?
    -The waiting time when enchanting items/chips needs to go.

    -The waiting time on switching characters needs to go.
    -I want a way to tell from a glance if my F skill is available of if there's still a tenth of a second left.
    -I want a dot in the middle of the screen when playing sharpshooter (if an intentional drawback of your weapon gets bypassed by drawing a dot in the middle of the screen with a sharpie, then it's probably not good design)

    -Why is it impossible to bind an action to left click, right click and other mouse buttons (but the scroll wheel is fine for some reason).
    -The pause during half time is too long, cut it to just character changes, it looks pretty bad anyway.

  • I agree with Newt, it's a bit outdated.

    Also [CM]glitch.exe set up new feedback forms:

    ENGLISH - https://goo.gl/forms/RWlCY65vmGQvWSbI3
    GERMAN - https://goo.gl/forms/ZVFWjM1ziX4nwquj2
    FRENCH - https://goo.gl/forms/HFYvdkoARZRZEtug2
    RUSSIAN - https://goo.gl/forms/AWx16HEgGkWITM2k2
    TURKISH - https://goo.gl/forms/gTwhjc5cKr6Od0lC3
    SPANISH - https://goo.gl/forms/968egzbBQjiYrU643


    I think that's a better way to gather feedbacks anyway than in a forum thread.