Feedback needed - Weapons, Basic

  • GenjuMadaMada , Hiding info is needed for the game. Because if a RM don't like what they see. The person might get kick. That how abusive the community can turn. Plus its never fun to order people around. Having people knowing the weapon they use just ruin the fun. People on the other team will try to match what the other team had thats bad. People will often bash in players calling them noobs. That will make the game environment more toxic. The feature has to many downside and why it never going happen.


    As for disable enchant/chip that will never happen. Because those are too important in the game. The only thing we need is "Stats Limiter" I remember there one, but it was never implemented in the game. I think.


    Lastly for everyone. A reminder this thread is "Weapons Thread (Guns&Swords) not a game feature thread like skills, chips, etc above. Kara will likely make a thread about game feature #Soon in the future.

    I find it being able to spot hackers way more useful.


    Also as far as the vote kick exists you will keep being kicked for using weapons no matter if your info is hidden or not.

  • I find it being able to spot hackers way more useful.


    Also as far as the vote kick exists you will keep being kicked for using weapons no matter if your info is hidden or not.

    Wurd, Hella:

    There's too much hate for underused weapons. O_O One would think that they would be tested to see how far one can go with said weapon, but... apparently, "To each their own," holds up.

  • let's just agree that there's a lot of immature players that out there that kick people for one-sided & selfish reasons. This isn't really the place to discuss vote-kicks or show/hide info settings. I'd like to edit my opinion on Vital Shock. Turns out you just gotta play smart with it.


    Vital Shock~

    Keep it as it is.


    Reason~

    This weapon wasn't meant to be a damage dealer. It works great as a disrupt/distract or combo chain weapon. Imo it's probably the most balanced melee in the game.


    More Detail

    This weapon was obviously designed to disrupt or distract enemy players. It works great as team weapon because of it's trip & suction attacks. Got one of those TD rushers that like using the stairs? Well suck them into the lasers before they jump over! Playing OS and you see someone about to combo your teammate? Yank them away, so they'll miss them! Got people that like to use jump attacks? Vital Jump attack says "nope". It all comes down to timing. It's key strengths require SP to use, but that's good so they must be used carefully.

  • I agree that the vital shock is a great weapon as a disruptor weapon thanks to its air cut attack, HOWEVER, it is still an unbalanced weapon to my mind.

    Why ? Because it aims having the same role as an other famous weapons which is the Dagger. Indeed, same move speed, canceler weapon, both have cuts and air cuts, both have a dash. But the Vital Shock is Clearly less efficient than a dagger, you can't use its air cut without SP which negates its advantage on the dagger who can easily cancel a stun or other attacks even during a jump (rush in the stairs).

    Let's talk about its dash, its dash has the longest delay on S4L weapon.. it is a longer dash than the stab but still, its delay is making this weapon really unbalanced. You're taking too much risk for an attack which doesn't deal damage at all. Moreover, this dash can be dodge recovery at its end, and if you choose to Strong, there are plenty of cancel and a Push which can also be Recovered. And if you miss the strong after the dash, you can't move your camera on an opponent who will hit you during your fail because its delay is also HUGE. And if you manage to get the full hit of dash + strong + push, there aren't so much damage dealt for so much risk taken. Opponent's could have also canceled you during this very long attack.

    The strong of the vital only : Grab the opponent and deal the lightest damage ever.. 1st, a delay on this attack which make this attack risky too, 2nd, you can't combo it if the opponent is already trying to hit you (example : if the opponent you tried to grab is spamming its dagger stab, you're just helping him to make the 3 hit and kill you..). This is a risky attack that doesn't deal enough damage.

    So, at least, buff the damage of the dash + strong + push and the grab attack of the vital. But this weapon is clearly unbalanced.

  • I agree that the vital shock is a great weapon as a disruptor weapon thanks to its air cut attack, HOWEVER, it is still an unbalanced weapon to my mind.

    Why ? Because it aims having the same role as an other famous weapons which is the Dagger. Indeed, same move speed, canceler weapon, both have cuts and air cuts, both have a dash. But the Vital Shock is Clearly less efficient than a dagger, you can't use its air cut without SP which negates its advantage on the dagger who can easily cancel a stun or other attacks even during a jump (rush in the stairs).

    It's true that the Dagger can cancel attacks with it's JA. But the Vital JA forces targets straight down and also puts them in a "Tripped up" state. I'll run two examples here~


    1: Ball carrier attempts to jump over the lasers; you JA him/her with Dagger. S/he still has the freedom to move with WASD, and so can control where S/he lands.


    2: Ball carrier attempts to jump over the lasers; you JA him/her with Vital. S/he is forced straight down and cannot use SP to escape the "Tripped" state since they have the ball (and are likely out of SP), and S/he is dunked into the lasers.


    Dagger could be used more offensively in TD (Rusher), while Vital more defensive (Defender). You could say they're kind of opposite. The SP consumption wouldn't be as much of a problem for a Defender type build. Not all weapons are supposed to be for Rushers, and the Vital would be good as a counter since it matches Dagger in terms of speed.


    Let's talk about its dash, its dash has the longest delay on S4L weapon.. it is a longer dash than the stab but still, its delay is making this weapon really unbalanced. You're taking too much risk for an attack which doesn't deal damage at all. Moreover, this dash can be dodge recovery at its end, and if you choose to Strong, there are plenty of cancel and a Push which can also be Recovered. And if you miss the strong after the dash, you can't move your camera on an opponent who will hit you during your fail because its delay is also HUGE. And if you manage to get the full hit of dash + strong + push, there aren't so much damage dealt for so much risk taken. Opponent's could have also canceled you during this very long attack.

    It's Lunge is overused in situations where it shouldn't be. People assume since it's the most damaging attack, it should be the one to use. This is where players make their mistake. The pre-delay is only a problem if you miss. If you land it the post-delay is almost non-existent. Use this attack less often, and as an opening exploiter and you'll get different results.


    The strong of the vital only : Grab the opponent and deal the lightest damage ever.. 1st, a delay on this attack which make this attack risky too, 2nd, you can't combo it if the opponent is already trying to hit you (example : if the opponent you tried to grab is spamming its dagger stab, you're just helping him to make the 3 hit and kill you..). This is a risky attack that doesn't deal enough damage.

    So, at least, buff the damage of the dash + strong + push and the grab attack of the vital. But this weapon is clearly unbalanced.

    This is actually my favorite and most used attack on it. You can attack people through window holes with it from a safe distance. You can also brain people with it by hitting them with the 1st hit only. (This makes them assume they'll get pulled to you). Then they end up attacking and opening themself up to you. This attack hits twice, both hits do 10 damage. The first hit breaks revenge btw; so it can even be used to brain CS turtles. Only the 2nd hit pulls people.


    We don't need another damage dealing focused melee weapon. I don't want this to become the next "ez win" weapon. That's not what we should aim for. Btw it's even decent in Unlimited. It's kinda fun to JA Rev/Shotgun users then follow up with your own Rev/Shotgun. It pretty much ensures your shot will land. lol xD

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • It totally agree with you that JA Vital is clearly more effective in defense than a dagger one, but you actually can't rush at all with this weapon whereas you can both def and atk with the dag since its cut deals more damage, so it's a useful way to kill ppl without being exposed since the dagger cuts don't have a delay either. That's why dagger is more polyvalent than Vital, and its stab is clearly a highly used offensive attack which is very effective.


    So indeed, the vital dash may be more skilled to play than the dagger stabs but that is also why this weapon is too weak against others. The pre-delay is a problem if you miss and if you hit bc when you're targetting one guy, another opponent's mate can easily hit you (for example stab), saving his mate, killing or almost killed you, and you didn't take more than 50 Hp. Even as an opening exploiter this attack isn't worth it, a stab, an exo strong, a PS dash or strong, a JA Heavy CS is clearly more efficient than this dash :/


    Actually I tried to use the grab attack a lot but I didn't find a nice way to play with it, even if you deal the 1st hit only, there is a delay, and you can be hit by your opponent at this time. For this kind of attack, which has a delay, where you have to be on the ground, which blocks your movement (not like a PS Strong Cut), I do think that 20 HP isn't enough.


    Even if this weapon will receive a buff, I don't think it will be seen as an "ez weapon" since the dagger is already way more used, since its attack has also big delay so you still have to be skilled to correctly play this weapon.

    I really want to play this weapon which is very interesting, but as a Rusher, I can't take off my dagger, so I have to find a gameplay with Dagger and Vital and it's not effective at all since both are almost the same..

  • You're a Rusher you say, but I listed this weapon as seeming more Defender/Team based. So as a Rusher/Soloist why would you want to replace one of your key tools with one that isn't as effective in your eyes for this particular job? Vital's not ideal for killing in the way it's setup. There're more factors to consider as well. It is the only weapon that lets you aim your opponent in the direction you want to throw them (which is also why it lowers sensitivity so you won't accidently drop them due to turning too fast). Also with proper teamwork, you can have your mates do whatever they want to them while they're caught in your Dash+Shock.


    Anyway, I'd rather us continue this discussion in private if you wish. Or in game. Maybe we can do some testing with it?

  • Well, this cements

    Well:


    This cements some theories I've had with combo chaining with KT/XO.

  • Air Gun~

    Note: prolly gonna get hate for this one. xD


    Suggestions~
    1. Grant this gun Unlimited reloads.


    2. Make it so if you get hit mid charge you automatically release the charge and hit ppl in front of you. (Good counter to persistent melee players).


    3. Add in a draw effect while you charge it. This would not deal damage, but would would be like the Parent Virus's draw attack, exept it'd only draw players in from just a little bit beyond its attack range.



    Reasons~

    1. Most other guns that overshadow this one have unlimited ammo, and I can't think of many places other than St-2 where it's useful.


    2. The automatic release upon being hit could possibly give you room to breathe if someone tries to peruse you with melee. The on hit flinch effect you receive from the melee hit will also cancel your AG post delay, giving you more opportunities.


    3. It draws in a great deal of air before it's fully charged. The amount released is enough to blow someone away. Wouldn't it make sense for the initial charge to also draw nearby players in that's within a certain distance? This attack could replicate the Parent Virus's explosion to a degree if a draw feature was added to the charge. I know some players would be against it, but it'd make the AG even more unique. More tactical/team based moves could be planned with it. For instance the draw could help prevent someone who's passed you from entering the goal. Or you could start an initial draw when someone's trying to take the stairs to sabotage them.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • Okay but you're going to have to explain to me how that would make air gun any more skillful or fun (because it needs to be either of those or I don't want it to ever be viable). I can only imagine this causing a great deal of frustration when used by sniping turtles with shield up.

    Air gun used to be one of my favourite weapon when you could use it with shield cancel (and it was balanced in its context). Now though, melee weapons svck, sniping turtles are doing well and power shield is OP so I want to see Air gun neither buffed nor restored to its former glory. Or at least, not until melee weapons aside from PS are elevated beyond the status of worse mine gun / MKII bombs and both power shield and rail gun get the nerf they deserve.

  • Okay but you're going to have to explain to me how that would make air gun any more skillful or fun (because it needs to be either of those or I don't want it to ever be viable). I can only imagine this causing a great deal of frustration when used by sniping turtles with shield up.

    Air gun used to be one of my favourite weapon when you could use it with shield cancel (and it was balanced in its context). Now though, melee weapons svck, sniping turtles are doing well and power shield is OP so I want to see Air gun neither buffed nor restored to its former glory. Or at least, not until melee weapons aside from PS are elevated beyond the status of worse mine gun / MKII bombs and both power shield and rail gun get the nerf they deserve.

    Why should the shield be nerf ? I dont get it o.o

    And stop saying rg has to be nerf, it needs a rework back to it old form with more damages on it.

  • Okay but you're going to have to explain to me how that would make air gun any more skillful or fun (because it needs to be either of those or I don't want it to ever be viable). I can only imagine this causing a great deal of frustration when used by sniping turtles with shield up.

    Air gun used to be one of my favourite weapon when you could use it with shield cancel (and it was balanced in its context). Now though, melee weapons svck, sniping turtles are doing well and power shield is OP so I want to see Air gun neither buffed nor restored to its former glory. Or at least, not until melee weapons aside from PS are elevated beyond the status of worse mine gun / MKII bombs and both power shield and rail gun get the nerf they deserve.

    Sniping turtles would not be sniping if they were focused on charging the AG. If they choose to release their attack they could always be rs countered (by either guns or melee). As choosing to endure the AG's attack would result in them suffering their usual post delay. Also this auto-release upon being hit could make or break you in TD. Someone could narrowly pass the AG user and whack them while they're mid charge to fling themselves closer to the goal. So one would have to be careful where they decide to hold charge.


    The way I envisioned the charge draw is kinda like the parent virus, but it'd only pull people in from just outside of its normal attack range. Also I envisioned it being a bit of a weaker draw than PV. After you hit full charge the suction of air would cease. So at that point it'd be useless to keep holding it.


    This weapon wouldn't be much different in terms of offense, but defensively it'd have more use. I've always seen AG as a type of gun meant to deny peoples advances, this would just make it do its job a bit better.


    (Also it'd be kinda funny to draw someone onto their own mines/bombs, and it'd be funny to pull around Metalic users with no drawbacks). xD

  • Why should the shield be nerf ? I dont get it o.o

    And stop saying rg has to be nerf, it needs a rework back to it old form with more damages on it.

    I didn't say shield, I said power shield. That thing can tank 2 rifle mags (and probably even more) and still be up. Now I know that realistically that skill is kept in check by bombs and mines going through and boots where you can ignore the defense completely. But what if, let's suppose for a moment, that I don't want to play easy and OP weapons? What if I want to play weapons that require aim? What are my options to break through shield? Cannonade?


    And it's not even just power shield that's OP. A while ago, to prepare for the joke that would have been the pen death match tournament if it hadn't been interrupted, I played pen with normal shield against prems (including a certain DM player who is known for his absolutely stupid enchants) in death match the whole week. I scored first every time, wasn't even close.

    Sniping turtles would not be sniping if they were focused on charging the AG. If they choose to release their attack they could always be rs countered (by either guns or melee). As choosing to endure the AG's attack would result in them suffering their usual post delay. Also this auto-release upon being hit could make or break you in TD. Someone could narrowly pass the AG user and whack them while they're mid charge to fling themselves closer to the goal.

    -How long do you think the charge time for the AG is? Of course there's time for sniping, you only use your air gun if there's a threat incoming and even then you've got the time to sneak in several sniper shots.

    -You know that you can keep shield activated while firing the AG? And even if you make it so it's not possible anymore, there are walls in sta-2. There's one that protects defenders from covering fire when people go stairs, and there's one right next to the goal that people often WS from and that protects you from covering fire from the ramp.

    -Narrowly pass the AG user and whack them while they're mid charge? Who did you play against that played so poorly that they didn't even release the blast when you were close enough to get past them? If an AG user believes you're in range, they release the blast, and if you get past them they definitely do not charge up a second blast.


    If you add that draw in effect (and to be honest I have no idea what attacks that parent virus you're speaking of has, haven't played scenario since at least 3 years ago, as anyone who respects their own time should) to the current air gun, it would allow the user to choose whether to release directly or to start charging a bit to draw enemies to a position where they can be blasted off. It would eliminate the possibility you currently have of baiting the air gun shot while being slightly out of range and then run past, which is a big deal, and would make air gun even more obnoxious to score against than it already is (and when your team's not carrying their weight, it's already like banging your head against a wall).

  • -How long do you think the charge time for the AG is? Of course there's time for sniping, you only use your air gun if there's a threat incoming and even then you've got the time to sneak in several sniper shots.

    Pretty long for a close range gun attack. Also someone who uses mainly snipes probably won't be taking AG anyway. As you said you can't cancel it's animations anymore, and so if they do decide to fire it they'll have to wait for the post delay anim before switching to rail again.


    -You know that you can keep shield activated while firing the AG? And even if you make it so it's not possible anymore, there are walls in sta-2. There's one that protects defenders from covering fire when people go stairs, and there's one right next to the goal that people often WS from and that protects you from covering fire from the ramp.

    Your point? That's what Shield and Walls (and block) are for; To be taken advantage of (Though WS wasn't intended). Anyway It's a close ranged attack, so I don't see a problem here. Where else other than St-2 do you encounter AG btw?


    -Narrowly pass the AG user and whack them while they're mid charge? Who did you play against that played so poorly that they didn't even release the blast when you were close enough to get past them? If an AG user believes you're in range, they release the blast, and if you get past them they definitely do not charge up a second blast.


    If you add that draw in effect (and to be honest I have no idea what attacks that parent virus you're speaking of has, haven't played scenario since at least 3 years ago, as anyone who respects their own time should) to the current air gun, it would allow the user to choose whether to release directly or to start charging a bit to draw enemies to a position where they can be blasted off. It would eliminate the possibility you currently have of baiting the air gun shot while being slightly out of range and then run past, which is a big deal, and would make air gun even more obnoxious to score against than it already is (and when your team's not carrying their weight, it's already like banging your head against a wall).

    Who do you play against that never misses a shot would be a better question. Any player can make a mistake, and that's what I was referring to. Also the draw would pull them back because likely they wouldn't have SP to run by the time they pass you. You could for instance, prolong them from scoring while your teammates kill them.


    Also the PV's attack I was referring to is the one he does when it's under 50% life. It draws you to em and then sends out an explosion.


    Text Example (takes place at the team base)

    -AG Misses, ball carrier jumps over the lasers, -AG player begins to charge, and ball carrier can't move faster than the AG suction, and thus is pulled to the AG user. AG User pulls the player into the base lasers-


    Even if the ball carrier tries to shoot the AG player it won't stop the suction until its fully charged; or the AG player's dead. Also even if they try to melee the AG user, they could position them-self in a way that it'd punish the ball carrier for doing it. Like turning at an angle that'd throw them into a hole (or lasers) etc. It's true that players could still get around this, but it shouldn't be something that ppl could rely on as a crutch. I just thought it'd be a neat concept to make the AG into more of a sabotage/teamwork style weapon.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • Pretty long for a close range gun attack. Also someone who uses mainly snipes probably won't be taking AG anyway. As you said you can't cancel it's animations anymore, and so if they do decide to fire it they'll have to wait for the post delay anim before switching to rail again.

    Actually almost everybody who plays air gun plays it in a build with rail gun in sta 2. You can't cancel its animation, but you can still use it while holding up your shield, which means you don't have to worry about getting gunned down while defending. And you seem to have that misconception that rail gun is a midrange weapon or something. I mean it can be used midrange, but mostly it shines when you're lining up headshots on people who aren't close enough to fire back, that is pretty much 80% of the time in sta 2. There is absolutely no overlap between rail gun and air gun's roles, air gun is used to answer rushers, rail gun is used to apply pressure on the mid and when your own team pushes. Also, you don't need to charge up your blast and you can knock people back easily, while not getting punished as hard as with other melee attacks due to the fact that you still move during the post-fire frames.

    Your point? That's what Shield and Walls (and block) are for; To be taken advantage of

    It was that thing you said about being RS countered after blasting people with air gun. I don't know what you mean by RS countered (if you mean recovery, it's not as much of a factor anymore, server lag makes it impossible to predict when the attack is gonna hit perfectly every time, CS isn't played all that often anymore either, and boot users can't do anything that requires more than two button presses in a row), but getting shot at after releasing an air gun blast usually doesn't happen because you're behind cover or have your shield up. That's how the weapon is played.

    Who do you play against that never misses a shot would be a better question. Any player can make a mistake, and that's what I was referring to.

    If you have to wait for your enemy to make a mistake to score, there's an issue with the way you're playing. I mean, it's fine if it's something like hoping they're not gonna nail the hit crit revo or the close range triple railgun knockback, but not a weapon that is as easy to use as the airgun. Once you got the hang of the hitbox and the delay, mistakes happen so rarely that you actually want to alt+F4 out of shame every time you make one. I'm not talking out of by *ss there, I used to play air gun a fair amount, and I've played it after the nerf as well.


    You could for instance, prolong them from scoring while your teammates kill them.


    Also the PV's attack I was referring to is the one he does when it's under 50% life. It draws you to em and then sends out an explosion.


    Text Example (takes place at the team base)

    -AG Misses, ball carrier jumps over the lasers, -AG player begins to charge, and ball carrier can't move faster than the AG suction, and thus is pulled to the AG user. AG User pulls the player into the base lasers-


    Even if the ball carrier tries to shoot the AG player it won't stop the suction until its fully charged; or the AG player's dead. Also even if they try to melee the AG user, they could position them-self in a way that it'd punish the ball carrier for doing it. Like turning at an angle that'd throw them into a hole (or lasers) etc. It's true that players could still get around this, but it shouldn't be something that ppl could rely on as a crutch. I just thought it'd be a neat concept to make the AG into more of a sabotage/teamwork style weapon.

    If this was ever a thing, it would be absolutely cancerous. Air gun as it is is already used in Sta-2 often to good effect. Why would you want to make it even better, and in a way that's frustrating?. So now when the enemy defense has an air gun, you have to worry about getting sucked into the lasers (and apparently since the suction supposedly rivals walking speed it's not going to prove very difficult), and you can't just bait a blast by stopping right before the edge of the air gun's range since otherwise you get sucked in then blasted away. Meaning that in order to get past you have to hope that your enemy somehow misses, and then deal with the suction otherwise you can't score. In order to deal with the suction, you need to either have still a fair amount of SP remaining or have melee and hope that the air gun user doesn't dodge your attempt at meleeing them.

  • Suggestion: Rail Gun - Revert it back to what it used to be


    Reason: I'm very surprised it's stayed this long when imo it's more gamebreaking than when you guys gave breaker ability to stun. It is way too OP. They can very easily control the match. SS and Cannon are useless compared to it. Just revert it back to what it used to be, It was just fine. Unlimited ammo, you can spam it, it stuns, it throws, it has good damage... What can't it do? It's very demoralizing to play against.

  • Okay, once and for all, rail gun used to be bad and no fun to play. The current version isn't fine, but the old version was a joke. It had a huge delay between releasing left click and the shot actually going off.


    You might think that's a good thing, it requires prediction etc, well if you want to really see how it felt, try to play cannonade while only aiming for direct hits on people, and you'll see how awful it feels (cannonade still has that delay).


    Reverting back to how it used to be is almost the same as killing the weapon. I probably want that weapons to die more than anyone else, but can we just stop pretending that the old railgun was fine?

  • Okay, maybe not "just fine" But I'd rather take that over the current Rail Gun any day... Dedicated Rail Gun snipers were still able to make it somewhat viable like I make Cannonade somewhat viable. I try to use that exclusively and I do get plenty of direct hits so I know what you mean by the delay. Instead of changing RG completely they should have just focused on what was wrong with it in the first place like the delay as you mentioned... As of now the current RG is ridiculous!

  • Okay, maybe not "just fine" But I'd rather take that over the current Rail Gun any day... Dedicated Rail Gun snipers were still able to make it somewhat viable like I make Cannonade somewhat viable. I try to use that exclusively and I do get plenty of direct hits so I know what you mean by the delay. Instead of changing RG completely they should have just focused on what was wrong with it in the first place like the delay as you mentioned... As of now the current RG is ridiculous!

    What if they just~

    1: Removed the melee like blow effects they gave it on uncharged shots (Cuz I think old rail only did it on full charge, and yay no more Chaser abuse).

    2: Removed the Lightning Bomb slow-like effect from it in general. (It's already a 1 hit kill weapon, it shouldn't punish someone for surviving a hit).

    3: Put it back to 1 ammo restored per reload animation like it used to be. (Would punish the rapid fire Rail builds a little bit).


    It would already be simmilar to the old Rail in some ways, and without the delay still. It'd be a compromise between the two.


    Edit: While I'm at it I'll add bonus Suggestions for Cannon C:~

    4: Remove said delay from Cannonade as well.

    5: Make Cannon's charge time the same as the Rails, they used to be the same before, and they should be the same now.


    (More luv for cannon plz)

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • I'm opposed to buffing cannon's consistency. It's already frustrating to get thrown off the stage from afar I don't want it to happen more often.

    I'd be fine with it if the knockback was toned down though.


    My personal opinion on snipers is that they'll never be fun to fight against as long as they're snipers. They're condemned to be either not very effective or absolute hell to play against. In sta-2, even if you know where the sniper is (camping, they're always camping), you have no safe way of punishing them due to the map layout. You just find yourself hoping that you're not going to get sniped during crucial moments where you have no choice but to be out in the open. Beside, most of the time you don't really know whether or not they're aiming for you, and when exactly they are going to shoot, so there is a lot of luck involved with dodging just at the right time. You have to guess with almost no information at your disposal.


    Where rail gun and such are fair though is during midrange fights, where you can often predict when they're going to shoot and you also know whether or not they're aiming for you, and you can punish them for missing, or kill them before they get an opportunity to strike.


    On that basis, although it probably sounds paradoxical, I'd personally like to see sniping weapons reworked as very accurate midrange weapons (meaning massive damage and crowd control potency falloff but straight damage buff for sharp and cannon at least). But since it's probably not going to happen, I'm also just fine with snipers being so bad that nobody plays them.

  • It would still be very spammy which doesn't make sense for a snipe weapon.


    I may be a little biased but I'm actually fine with the way cannon is right now. Not a lot of people use it and most of the people that do use it aren't very good with it and then there are the few that are good with it and don't just rely on pushing. If they make it too good people will just abuse it like they already do with RG. RG snipers back then weren't that bad to play with even when they were pretty good with it but that could just be me since I was usually on the other side hitting em with cannon. I could at least counter them since our charge time was the same and whatnot.

  • Makes no sense for a sniping weap to be a midrange one lol

  • It would still be very spammy which doesn't make sense for a snipe weapon.


    I may be a little biased but I'm actually fine with the way cannon is right now. Not a lot of people use it and most of the people that do use it aren't very good with it and then there are the few that are good with it and don't just rely on pushing. If they make it too good people will just abuse it like they already do with RG. RG snipers back then weren't that bad to play with even when they were pretty good with it but that could just be me since I was usually on the other side hitting em with cannon. I could at least counter them since our charge time was the same and whatnot.

    The reason it's not used often is because the Rail overshadows it. One really shouldn't be changed too much without the other. Another option could be to give the current Rail the current Cannon's charge time instead of giving Cannon the Rail's current charge time.


    Edit~ Nithorius

    Sniping tier weapons are designed for long range. Although it sucks to get killed by someone you don't know is there, that's generally how that role works. Although I understand where you're coming from Nith, mid-range is not how they're intended to be used. Unfortunately Camping and Sniping go hand in hand. In war you won't see a sniper out in the open aiming at you, s/he'll be somewhere out of sight, camouflaged with their scope on you.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Fazoodle ().

  • I'll throw my two cents in as an old school rail/cannon player:

    No matter the game, a sniping weapon is always going to be a sniping weapon. It should be devastating, it should cause a quick shift in the landscape of the game, but, compared to other games, the charging is what keep the balance between rapid-fire headshots and making sure you pick your targets carefully.

    From what I recall, (speaking from the past), Railgun had a .5 second delay between release and hit, caused a flinch at around half or higher charge, had high base damage (something like 50-75), and did 1x damage on click, 2x on half-to-99% charge, and 4x damage on full charge (or something along those lines.. it's been forever since I've done real weapon breakdowns). The delay was hell to deal with, period; that being fixed is just fine. The charging aspect and damage dealt on the weapon are the other core points, and I feel as if those should be the base from where the balance comes from. A longer charge time with a broader damage window can easily mitigate most of the issues you see in the rail from what I've read in this debate: a VIP will most likely become the main target for the Rail user, but said user will have to take time to charge up the shot to make sure it's a one-hit kill. Lower amounts of charge can still do damage, but that damage could be low enough to deter spammed shots on a low clip, unless you would rather whittle the enemy down for a teammate to finish. The trade-off should be obvious from a damage perspective and it would make players think more and shoot less, or drop the weapon all together to find the next long-range OP option.


    Cannonade is the "AoE" answer for long-range players, which in itself is weird for a sniping-based weapon, but I digress. The push? Always been too much of an issue. The old Dark Lightning Umbrella gun, (which I was a fan of), was a reverse Cannonade, more or less, but it's radius of effect, and pull, we're set much lower to not cause too many issues with it's mechanics; the Cannonade itself can learn from this design choice. Explosions in general have a huge radius to affect, and the force behind that explosion is mirrored very well in the point-of-impact, which makes it a good weapon on St-2 to pretty much ruin all momentum. The same philosophy for the Railgun can be given to the Cannonade: scale the AoE and push in relation to how much charge you give it; increasing the charge time would make sense for the current amount of effect the weapon has, making sure that the user has to make the correct decision on what they decide to target or risk waiting X amount of seconds for another full blast.

    These weapons should be high-risk/high-reward, but they need to stay in their niche and thrive in it. Seeing as ST-2 is the only map any TD player cares about, and the collective of the unlimited TD community should know exactly where a sniper generally hides, it shouldn't be too hard to disrupt their gameplay and make each shot count instead of frantically firing until they need to reload. Sure, hiding on the rail, or one of the other top-of-the-map locations is possible, but you're forced to be out in the open, just like using wings. Players that use L/R camera settings will hide behind the walls, but other players should be pressuring these defenders instead of all trying to score at the exact same time.

    tl;dr: Scale damage/AoE/push on charge time, bigger risk/reward windows, players need to be smarter overall.

  • Y'all trying to argue based on labels. "Duh it's a sniping weapon, of course it snipes" -> It doesn't have to be a sniping weapon is what I'm saying. We can always delete the word "sniper" from the game and change the category to something else if that's what you don't like.


    It wouldn't even be that unrealistic (not that I personally care but apparently you people love realism): Technically rail gun is a projectile weapon (creates electromagnetic force between 2 rails to launch high velocity projectiles) and not a fancy word for laser gun, and since there's no prototype that has been used in actual combat we don't know what would be its effective range. Cannonade is well... a cannon I think, not exactly what comes to my mind when someone talks about snipers. And it doesn't even make sense that sharpshooter is a hitscan weapon in the first place (I mean that thing looks old, the projectile can't be fast enough to justify being hitscan).

    Although it sucks to get killed by someone you don't know is there, that's generally how that role works. Although I understand where you're coming from Nith, mid-range is not how they're intended to be used. Unfortunately Camping and Sniping go hand in hand. In war you won't see a sniper out in the open aiming at you, s/he'll be somewhere out of sight, camouflaged with their scope on you.

    Okay, but can you explain how that's a good thing for the game? This is a game inside a game, who cares about how snipers are supposed to play in other games, and how snipers are used in real life. Defending faulty game design with the argument of realism or established consensus is not a good idea.

    No matter the game, a sniping weapon is always going to be a sniping weapon. It should be devastating, it should cause a quick shift in the landscape of the game

    But why? Who said that and why is it important that all games follow that precept?


    scale the AoE and push in relation to how much charge you give it

    I've heard it's already the case though (or so I've heard). Unless you meant that it should scale more than it already does.


    Seeing as ST-2 is the only map any TD player cares about, and the collective of the unlimited TD community should know exactly where a sniper generally hides, it shouldn't be too hard to disrupt their gameplay and make each shot count

    That's almost never correct. The only time I recall trying to hound the sniper is acceptable is when you're low on HP or/and stamina or/and ammo and close to the enemy side and decide that you're not going to be much help in defending the next enemy push anyway. Nowadays most snipers have shields, or have shields AND airhug. You ain't winning a 1v1 against that after you've spent stamina to get to them. You can try to kill them by surprise if they're not paying attention, but it won't work the second time around (I mean, unless they're clueless).

    But like, let's say you did kill the sniper. Congratulations, now what? You're in the middle of the enemy base and nobody else is there. You've spent a lot of stamina to get there, and probably even more to fight the sniper, along with ammo. You're completely out of position. You can't damage people coming out of spawn since they have respawn invincibility, so they can just ignore you. How do you plan on still being useful to your team? Are you going to wait for the sniper to respawn and try to fight them again at a disadvantage?


    Unless you meant something else by "disrupting their gameplay" than trying to kill them up close.

  • But why? Who said that and why is it important that all games follow that precept?

    From a realistic standpoint, that's been the standard. It's conditioning that a gamer will expect, or classify, even if the name isn't blatantly given. A long-range high damage weapon is either going to be some form of extreme explosive, or a high-velocity bullet of some sort, that's just how it is. I'm not saying it can't be changed, simply that those weapons are categorized that way and should act as such. It's why I specifically mentioned the charging mechanic differentiating them from the norm.


    I've heard it's already the case though (or so I've heard). Unless you meant that it should scale more than it already does.

    It is, but following my opinion piece, and balance idea, I'd expect a greater lower range, but keep the max the way it is at the cost of, say, double the charge length.

    Unless you meant something else by "disrupting their gameplay" than trying to kill them up close.

    Just because your invading to take out the sniper doesn't mean you can't do more damage. Even if you are in a position where the enemy is focused on you, that's less focus for whoever is deciding to score on your team. Work with them, plan ahead, and be smart; bring weapons that are good for keeping the enemy down while in their base. Go ahead and die for that cause, then do it all over again. Every single player doesn't have to be trying to run the stairs to score a goal through the wall of defense, you should be making sure that nothing stops the ball from getting to the goal.


    The community has evolved to a point where it's wrong to think outside of the box and do something different without being ridiculed, hounded, and possibly kicked from rooms. It's a bad position for the game to be in when the health of the game is simply based on everyone using the same 2-3 sets of weapons with zero deviation, which SO suffers from just as much. I understand that every weapon isn't balanced to perfection, that Rev is better than BSG because of all five bullets being fixed compared to the center one on the BSG, or that HMG will always trump Turret and the new umbrella gun because they just aren't as good, or that Gauss Rifle's spread is completely ineffective simply because it goes up, but that shouldn't stop someone from finding a use for these weapons in their own niche way.

    I hope whatever balance Aeria comes up with fixes the landscape and allows people to be unique, but it'll also be a long road back to the community wanting to be that way. It'd be a shame to continue seeing such a unique game fade into nothingness because it became stale. . . but that's just my opinion.


    Edit: A quick side note, but did they remove the ability for a cannonade's blast to penetrate through shields, or did everyone just forget about it?

  • From a realistic standpoint

    that's been the standard

    that's just how it is

    those weapons are categorized that way and should act as such.

    Don't you feel like you're repeating yourself somewhat? I don't care what's conventional for a video game, I'm asking about what's good for S4 league in particular and conducive to fun being had. What do you see in sniping that makes the game better, why should there be snipers in S4 league. Because I can tell you why I think it isn't fun and mostly leads to straight up boring games whether the sniper is skilled or isn't, which I did already, in part.


    But, if the idea of railgun being anything other than a sniper is such an unfathomable concept that it would confuse new and old players alike, then I just want it nerfed to the ground so that I never have to play against it, or have teammates use it. There's no rule saying we have to have a usable sniper in the game, is there?

    A long-range high damage weapon is either going to be some form of extreme explosive, or a high-velocity bullet of some sort

    But is the reverse true? Does extreme explosive or high velocity projectile mean sniping? Well the answer to my rhetorical question is no (who would have thought). Rocket launcher isn't a sniping weapon (I mean it has some long range uses but mostly it's midrange), not in this game and not in any game I know. And when it comes to high veloctiy projectiles, Overwatch's Zarya's Particle Cannon is an example of one that has pretty low range.


    As for your last point about invading against a sniper, it's actually something I've tried several times, and it failed, and I told you why already. You start by assuming you're going to succeed in taking out the sniper, that's missing the crucial point that you're actually extremely unfavoured against the sniper in the first place if they notice you. Try to invade Slicer Dicer, Aimless or other such monsters and tell me if they don't notice you (I mean, it's not impossible, but it's unlikely that you're going to be able to do it more than a few times scattered across a match).


    But even then, even if you do kill them, there's a part I've cut from my explanation, since otherwise it would have been too long. Like you said, the only way in which you're not out of position after killing the sniper is if your team goes on the offensive, forcing the enemy team into a defensive stance, which is where you can capitalise on your current position. But the thing is, there is logically less than a 50% chance that your team wins the mid and gets to push with the Fumbi while you're gone to fight the sniper. The reason for that is, while you move to the backline, the sniper has opportunities to deal damage to your team, uncontested. Meaning that your team has to fend for themselves with equal forces to the enemy team... minus the damage dealt by the sniper before you distracted him. They are unfavored to win the engagement, thus the more likely scenario is that the enemy team is going to win the fight and get to push, while you're out of position and incapable of doing anything.


    What is more often correct though, is to invade while your team is already pushing the ramp, but I don't consider it as hounding the sniper in particular, since once your team made it through to the ramp without getting sniped, the sniper ceases to be a priority target just by virtue of being a sniper. And, if they're more intelligent than my average teammate, they change position to be closer to the top of the ramp, where the rest of their team should also be, as soon as they've confirmed the intentions of your team.

    It's why I specifically mentioned the charging mechanic differentiating them from the norm.

    Let's see... Overwatch, TF2, the other TF2, Quake. That's four of the other five arena shooters that have snipers that I know something about, and all of them have a charging mechanic on at least one sniper rifle. I feel like at this point it has become the norm.

  • 'i don't like playing against snipers so nerf them as hell'

    If we should listen ppl like you, every weap in this game would be nerf.

  • 'i don't like playing against snipers so nerf them as hell'

    If we should listen ppl like you, every weap in this game would be nerf.

    Is there anyone who likes playing against snipers? Can you explain to me what's fun about playing against snipers?

    You sum up what I say as some sort of self-interested whining, but you do nothing to answer the questions that I've asked.

    I'm asking about what's good for S4 league in particular and conducive to fun being had. What do you see in sniping that makes the game better, why should there be snipers in S4 league.

    Although the more relevant question would be, do you even care whether or not people other than you are having fun?

    I do care though. And if there is an appeal in camping and sniping people from afar other than the fact that you don't have to risk your b*tt like everyone else, then please pray tell what it is.

  • Does extreme explosive or high velocity projectile mean sniping? Well the answer to my rhetorical question is no (who would have thought). Rocket launcher isn't a sniping weapon (I mean it has some long range uses but mostly it's midrange), not in this game and not in any game I know. And when it comes to high veloctiy projectiles, Overwatch's Zarya's Particle Cannon is an example of one that has pretty low range.

    I'm speaking of long-range weapons in general, not specifically calling them sniping weapons here. Sure there are outlier examples, but again, we're back to the first quote and things being conventional for the game it is. In most cases, the longest range weapon in any game will be a sniper rifle, or some form of homing explosive/ballistic weapon. Rocket launchers are unreliable after X amount of distance, but it can still be used past the mid-range on bigger targets.

    As for your last point about invading against a sniper, it's actually something I've tried several times, and it failed, and I told you why already. You start by assuming the sniper has already been taken out, that's missing the crucial point that you're actually extremely unfavoured against the sniper in the first place if they notice you.

    You should never assume that a sniper is down until you see some form of notification that they are, that's simple logic. It's also easy to track a respawn timer and know the standard locations for where they'll be if you have to take an educated guess on the chance they'll fly out of the gate and take you out. You've already covered the point of doing it on the offensive, instead of the defensive, which is the most likely usage scenario, and you've covered the fact that it's all up to probability, which will be the case for any core mechanics of TD anyways, but it doesn't nullify my point of actually going out there and doing the job for your team.


    Even in a case where you are the main target of the sniper, speaking from a defensive position, you're still taking the focus off of your team's core attacker/s or defender/s. An invader is going to be one less player on your team stopping the defense, but why not come prepared to disrupt from the enemy's side of the map as well? Sure, in a perfect world where everyone's skill level is balanced, you can expect every player on your team to do their best and slip up once or twice on an outplay, but even that is based on probability on who has the advantage in the moment. At the end of the day, all you can do is play and do your best.


    On that note, would you rather have the enemy sniper picking your team off one by one uncontested, or at least have someone keeping them distracted while the enemy goes for a goal. Why do people bring typical deterrents like bind, block, either sentry, etc. as a defender to keep the enemy from scoring? Why not bring them as an invader as well to keep the enemy from leaving? There were a fair share of devastating rail users back in my generation just as much as this one, plus they had the original stats and delay to deal with. That didn't stop people from invading and putting pressure on the enemy base. They probably died as much as an invader would now, but they still did it for the good of the enemy team. Even I've dealt with them first hand on countless occasions, sometimes with a kill and sometimes with a death. They made their presence known and made sure they were just as threatening as anyone else on the team, even as a player deep in enemy territory.

    I don't care what's conventional for a video game

    This alone covers most of the debate, and contradicts what you say that follows:

    I'm asking about what's good for S4 league in particular and conducive to fun being had.

    S4 is a video game, and shouldn't get special treatment just because it's unique in it's own lane, simply because you don't care what's conventional and what isn't. It doesn't mean others will feel the same, and it doesn't mean that S4 needs to be even more radical than it already is. The ten-year anniversary is around the corner, and players of the game know it's been plagued with issues since before it's first anniversary came around, yet you still have people sticking with it and hoping things turn around or watch as the slow burn of issues finally engulf the game whole. If the remaining community has accepted what's always been in place, why cause such a drastic shift?


    Archetypes exist for a reason in video games. Hell, even S4 had archetypes in the early years with a few AP bundles: Striker, Center Guard, Defender (pretty sure it had a more interesting name, but it was the defense bundle), and the Sword pack. Either way, conventional is the norm in S4, and PV/Neowiz created and adapted weapons around those roles. S4 isn't an RPG where you can throw out hundreds of unique class types that players can adapt to themselves, it's a high-speed third-person shooter, and shooters, no matter the type, will always have CQC, medium, and long range weaponry, along with S4's inclusion of an array of melee weapons and skills to use in battle. It's up to the player to make use of it all. A lack of balance never stopped anyone before from using stronger or weaker weapons, why is it so different now?


    Yes, the gripe of dealing with a sniping weapon is counter-intuitive in any game that has a weapon that can be classified as such because of the high stopping power and potential to one-hit, but all that will happen is that the player will rage, flame, complain, and either deal with it to the end, or ragequit; this isn't the developer's issue to deal with most of the time since someone is that good with the weapon. Yes, arena shooters have standard and creative ways to fit into those archetypes, but they still exist, and they're also monitored and balanced fairly well to make sure gameplay is fluid and okay for everyone; Aeria is trying to achieve this to bring new life into S4 while keeping the integrity and style of the original game, whether it be maps, weapons, skills, outfits, or the big balance patch/es they have planned; S4 hasn't had the best track record for maintaining... well anything really, and Aeria is putting it's faith in the playerbase that's been there for the ups and downs to help them balance what's already there without going overboard.


    I have no issue with your idea of changing the railgun from a long-range weapon to a mid-range one, nor do I have any issues with your feelings toward nerfing the gun to the ground, my issue is that you need to look out for the health of the game as a whole. Even if you do get the changes you want, it's not going to stop the portion of the community that use the weapon to demand a revert or buffs, or even more nerfs. Most of the changes over the years have been because of community outcry (i.e. Handgun aim-assist, old umbrella gun being completely removed, the limited/unlimited ammo issue that started with Season 1). Voices will be heard on such a drastic change if you had your way.


    Edit:

    Although the more relevant question would be, do you even care whether or not people other than you are having fun?

    I do care though. And if there is an appeal in camping and sniping people from afar other than the fact that you don't have to risk your b*tt like everyone else, then please pray tell what it is.

    The same could be said about any aspect of the game. "Why do you enjoy rushing the ball so much?" "Why do you enjoy being a healer?" "Why do you enjoy SO?" Everyone has their own preference and reason why they do it. Personally, I enjoy being a sniper because I don't like being in the thick of battle, I rather pick my targets carefully at the vital moments of a match to keep everything in my teams favor.

  • Is there anyone who likes playing against snipers? Can you explain to me what's fun about playing against snipers?

    You sum up what I say as some sort of self-interested whining, but you do nothing to answer the questions that I've asked.

    Although the more relevant question would be, do you even care whether or not people other than you are having fun?

    I do care though. And if there is an appeal in camping and sniping people from afar other than the fact that you don't have to risk your b*tt like everyone else, then please pray tell what it is.

    The appeal of sniping is that you are rewarded for high accuracy. With the OLD rail, it felt good landing a crit on someone or nabbing them mid air. Your accuracy is tested and you can make great impact on the game at a remote location. It is a skilled and efficient way to deal with players and Some people just love sniping, deal with it.


    You out here trying to get an archetype that has been around since the inception of shooters removed from a shooting game. lmao


    Maybe your complaint has to do with the fact that Rail Gun is in a Busted place right now.

  • I'm speaking of long-range weapons in general, not specifically calling them sniping weapons here. Sure there are outlier examples, but again, we're back to the first quote and things being conventional for the game it is. In most cases, the longest range weapon in any game will be a sniper rifle, or some form of homing explosive/ballistic weapon. Rocket launchers are unreliable after X amount of distance, but it can still be used past the mid-range on bigger targets.

    I don't follow you when you say that explosive weapons tend to have a long range. Some weapons have explosive homing/ballistic weapons but not enough from my knowledge to warrant it being part of the expectations of the player. And nobody thinks of rocket launchers as being long ranged weaponry, unless you're talking about some sort of mecha shooter (I mean, unless you're spamming a choke point or an objective). I believe cannonade is pretty unique in being a hitscan explosive weapon.


    You should never assume that a sniper is down until you see some form of notification that they are, that's simple logic. It's also easy to track a respawn timer and know the standard locations for where they'll be if you have to take an educated guess on the chance they'll fly out of the gate and take you out.

    My bad, I used the wrong tense, what I meant to type was "You assume that you're going to be able to take the sniper out if you do get in range" which is already jumping the gun.


    it's all up to probability, which will be the case for any core mechanics of TD anyways, but it doesn't nullify my point of actually going out there and doing the job for your team.


    When the chance of failure is higher than the chance of success despite your best efforts, and when failure leads to the enemy team being able to push yours with higher numbers, it's not a good play. And yes it does nullify your point of trying to hound the sniper, since it's the risk of you ending up failing and being mostly deadweight to your team is high. But I mean, if you're the least useful in your team anyway, then sure, you can go there and keep the sniper busy and it will probably be better than other things you could do. But my games aren't like that, I can't leave the main fighting to my team and expect them to come out on top.


    Is all of that sniper disruption talk just assumptions or have you actually had consistent success with that?

    Quote

    S4 is a video game, and shouldn't get special treatment just because it's unique in it's own lane, simply because you don't care what's conventional and what isn't. It doesn't mean others will feel the same, and it doesn't mean that S4 needs to be even more radical than it already is.

    You know what's both unconventional AND harmful for the game in S4? The fact that you can snipe people directly coming out of their spawn at the start of the game, the fact that you can camp at the same spot for the whole game with a sniper and never get punished for it. Sniper is fine in other games because people have to be smart about it, well it's not the case at all in S4. You're acting like not having sniping weapons is going to make all hell break lose, but there have been other games without sniping weapons. And having played one such game, I can tell you that I've never seen anyone alarmed or complaining or confused about the lack of sniper rifles. And even if there are in some games, very often the level design is smart enough that they aren't a problem.


    And look, I've played rail gun in sta-2 several times out of curiosity, and although I'm not the best sniper there is, some games I could tell that I was being a huge pain for the enemy team, almost never missing my snipes at the start of rounds and top-scoring and such. And have I never had an issue with anyone going after me directly? No, never. More free points points is what they were. That's just not a thing that smart people do.


    Quote

    If the remaining community has accepted what's always been in place, why cause such a drastic shift?

    People have not accepted the current rail gun, that's for sure. I think the reason why people were fine with the old railgun and the current sharpshooter and canno being in the game is that they' just weren't very good. Like, for weapons who are supposed to be part of the most skill requiring and aim dependant, there was a noticeable lack of them in tournaments, notably s5 tournaments, where the best players with the best accuracy were playing. If a weapon has the highest skill floor but isn't even played at the highest level, it just means they're suboptimal and I don't think anyone can argue with that.


    I think by design, they're cursed to be either suboptimal or feel bad to play against, and to me it just means they're not suitable for the game. That "Drastic shift" is just my personal answer to that conundrum, a way to find a spot in the meta for those weapons that doesn't reward brainless camping and I don't see why people would react more negatively to it than if rail gun goes back to not even be worth considering. Isn't it widely accepted that reworks are more exciting than nerfs? But eh, I wouldn't mind the change that everyone seems to be advocating for, that is to bring back rail gun to how it was before. Current railgun mains would try to adapt, but soon notice how much of a nerf in power and comfort it is, and everything would go back to the way it was, with railgun being a joke.


    The appeal of sniping is that you are rewarded for high accuracy.

    You're also rewarded for high accuracy with an hypothetical highly accurate midrange weapon. It's also skilled and efficient and you can have a great impact. Oh right, there's one difference though:

    I don't like being in the thick of battle

    at a remote location

    I was expecting this. Yup, basically the appeal of sniping in S4 is that you can kill people who can't do anything to you in return. Snipers don't like getting directly punished for their mistakes, and they don't like having to react to people shooting at them, or trying to melee them, or doing anything that could hurt them. I mean, it's true, snipers don't die very often in this game (in sta-2 at least).

    Quote

    "Why do you enjoy rushing the ball so much?" "Why do you enjoy being a healer?" "Why do you enjoy SO?"

    I'm not much of a rusher myself, but it's both extremely technical and at the same time requires that you adapt to what people are doing on an extremely short notice, it tests your reflexes as well as allowing you to be creative. There are always multiple choices that you can make and in the space of very little time, so many decisions can be made. It's also pretty satisfying when you learn a new skill and suddenly it opens new paths, it allows you to reconsider the way you play as a whole. And, when a complicated rush gets pulled off, it's impressive, and people are impressed.

    I don't play much SO, but talking to players like Fazoodle it's obvious to me that there is a lot of appeal in it. He knows exactly what can combo into what, which attacks can be punished, how to make the most out of an opening and has techniques to counter popular strategies. And I'm not even talking about the execution of some techniques (like, chaining several CS/scythe/dagger comboes in a row before an enemy hits the ground) that seem extremely hard even for me. All of that wouldn't exactly be any useful in unli, so it's great that there exists a place to exploit all of the depth that is characteristic to swordplay. There also seems to be a lot more decisions involved than in unli where your best course of action is very often to just shoot people to death.

    I sometimes like healing in touch down. When you're healing, you have to be hyper aware of people trying to go after you, and you have to react while still providing support for your team, so you're actually really busy and you have to do more camera movement than with any other build. When your team tries to push you constantly have to choose between healing, dealing damage yourself, letting the carrier die to let someone else or yourself pick up or retreating because the fight is lost.

    I could go into more details.

    You out here trying to get an archetype that has been around since the inception of shooters removed from a shooting game. lmao

    Dude, for a while before sharp shooter was released, people almost never played snipers. You'd see one every 10 sta-2 games at most. People survived, the game survived. There doesn't need to be viable long range sniping options in a game. Only a tiny amount of people care so much about snipers that they refuse to play anything else.

  • Ugh:


    Instead of lamenting about how the railgun is, why not just petition to keep both iterations of the railgun with the newer iteration becoming the Mark 2 variant? No Mk2 rooms are a thing, anyway. Y'all may as well add that to the weapon limits.

  • Ugh:


    Instead of lamenting about how the railgun is, why not just petition to keep both iterations of the railgun with the newer iteration becoming the Mark 2 variant?

    so nobody uses the original because the mark 2 is busted as hell and every game continues to have both sides rapid firing onehits everywhere

    just put the current iteration deep into the dumpster and never look at it again

  • And nobody thinks of rocket launchers as being long ranged weaponry

    I followed up that point with the issue of it falling off after a certain distance, but it can still be used as such. What other long-range weaponry truly exists beyond a sniper-rifle, or it's mundane cousin the bow?

    Is all of that sniper disruption talk just assumptions or have you actually had consistent success with that?

    Most of my S4 playtime was spent sniping with cannon, and then my rail, until I moved over to the Gauss Rifle. I've been in both positions of the sniper and invader, and I've had success and failure in both. I rarely played with AP/FP stats as well (I have a perm launch +0 rail as my only perm), so I was putting myself at a disadvantage as well. I can also probably connect this with the next quote

    People have not accepted the current rail gun, that's for sure. I think the reason why people were fine with the old railgun and the current sharpshooter and canno being in the game is that they' just weren't very good. Like, for weapons who are supposed to be part of the most skill requiring and aim dependant, there was a noticeable lack of them in tournaments, notably s5 tournaments, where the best players with the best accuracy were playing. If a weapon has the highest skill floor but isn't even played at the highest level, it just means they're suboptimal and I don't think anyone can argue with that.

    As railgun was popular back then, it also wasn't as ridiculous. You rarely had shield snipers, rarely had hugsnipers, you just had people who jumped around, aimed and fired, myself included. The landscape was also different: suicide bombers were actually effective because of the SD fix not happening yet, most of the stats you have now didn't really exist beyond the standard FP (no enchanting, poor boosting chips that were non-permanent[beyond reload speed and sentry placement speed]), and plenty of other things, capping off with the final issue:

    I was expecting this. Yup, basically the appeal of sniping in S4 is that you can kill people who can't do anything to you in return. Snipers don't like getting directly punished for their mistakes, and they don't like having to react to people shooting at them, or trying to melee them, or doing anything that could hurt them. I mean, it's true, snipers don't die very often in this game (in sta-2 at least).

    Hiding behind the walls in St-2 was frowned upon as a rail user back then. Unless you were reloading, you rarely saw anyone back there. The L/R camera is the biggest culprit in this case, making it near impossible to actually take a sniper out while they sit there completely safe. Combine that with the type of spawn area it has and it's less an issue about the sniper and more about the community's lack of diversity since St-2 is the only map they really care about. Personally, I hate St-2, and I spent most of my time on Tunnel, Old School or Colosseum, because I really hated the lack of team-based play that was emerging at the time after the introduction of FP sets and items, but I digress.

    Snipers, generally speaking, should be hidden from view and reacting to their surroundings, knowing that they only get the one shot before their target is dead, or they need to re-position because of a miss (which shouldn't be happening.) It's never been exclusively about the hiding, but the power you have to remove one target instantly. In S4, everyone knows where you are if you miss, and they'll start to keep an eye out for you because it's the smart thing to do.


    The old rail was a highly skilled weapon, because you had to get a headshot if you wanted the one-hit kill, thanks to AP/FP mitigating the damage to leave you at <25hp. The knockback was also a good perk on a full charge, but tagging someone with any charge was enough to cause a flinch, also just fine to deal with if you were prepared, or pay for if you had tunnel vision; these weapons, Railgun and Cannonade, were effective because you had to be good, but the people that were good were feared, it was no different than any other game with a sniper rifle, beyond the fact that you needed to charge for the highest damage shot, meaning you had no rapid fire. A revert to the old Rail would be perfectly fine in my eyes, as the new rail is clearly too OP to exist in the form it's in now.

  • Snipers, generally speaking, should

    The old rail was a highly skilled weapon, because you had to get a headshot if you wanted the one-hit kill, thanks to AP/FP mitigating the damage to leave you at <25hp.

    i just wanted to point out this thing. There are plenty of games where snipe OS everyone without having a 3s charging. Furthermore, there's no delay between your shot and the hit. Then you guys seems to forget s4 has a GP that allows people to dodge WAY MORE efficiently than any other game which makes snip aim even harder.

    I have nothing against the old-rg since I played it a lot but stop all of you being blind: With the comming of fps, enchants and espers sniper weaps got nerfed hardly. The old-rg was only a high-aim weap with no rewarding for using it.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Yaethus ().

  • i just wanted to point out this thing. There are plenty of games where snipe OS everyone without having a 3s charging. Furthermore, there's no delay between your shot and the hit. Then you guys seems to forget s4 has a GP that allows people to dodge WAY MORE efficiently than any other game which makes snip aim even harder.

    I have nothing against the old-rg since I played it a lot but stop all of you being blind: With the comming of fps, enchants and espers sniper weaps got nerfed hardly. The old-rg was only a high-aim weap with no rewarding for using it.

    There's no blind statement behind this. I should've added more details as I'm not downplaying any of that, but I shouldn't need to compare gameplay mechanics if we know how different S4 is compared to most other games.

    I specifically pointed out that a normal sniper rifle (usually) has the OHKO potential no matter where you hit, compared to the Railgun where you needed the headshot (full-charge) or you didn't get the kill (or the knockback caused them to fly off the map); It does enough damage for someone else to clean up, which should be enough if you're covering the Striker, but if you're dueling the enemy sniper, they could easily just get healed up. By the time enchanting truly picked up and people started getting the high level and specialized stats, Railgun couldn't stand up to anyone anymore, and so it fell off.

  • Why are you even comparing S4's sniper with other games that have way shorter TTKs? And for my part, I've never played a game where snipers don't charge and one shot even if they bodyshot as well, except for the Krabber in titanfall 2, but it's not even a hitscan weapon. You must me talking about "I see you first, so you die" games, which S4 is not and cannot be compared to. And in those kinds of games if the sniper blatantly sits in the same spot with little to no cover for the whole games, they get killed, a lot. Which is not the case in S4. But there's an issue when you got complete coverage of all the map from your spawn which also happens to be fortified enough (lasers, only 2 paths to get in, 3 if anchor, and the possibility of retreating to spawn for cover) that you generally don't have to worry about people going after you.


    And I'd be fine with sniper existing if like you said, you couldn't just camp the same spot the whole game, but as it turns out you can.

  • Karasakal


    Breaker:

    - Reduce left click range

    - Make the left click damage the same or less than jump attack

    - Remove stun from right click


    The reason for the suggestions above is because the main attraction of the weapon is its jump attack, so having the left click attack do more damage with the same range as the jump attack is nonsensical. Please fix that.


    Counter Sword:

    - Slightly increase the damage of all attacks, by maybe 10-15%

    - Remove the 1 second delay from jump attacks


    I think this weapon was nerf'd too hard before and you should buff it slightly, but don't make it as overpowered as it was 3 years ago. Also, the delay on the jump attack makes no sense. Remove that please.


    Twin Blades:

    - Add delay to the first hit of the left click combo because it's too fast as it is now

    - Slightly reduce the range and damage of the jump attack

    - Slightly increase the recovery delay of the jump attack

    - Slightly increase the damage of the left click combo


    This weapon shouldn't be as fast as it is now. The jump attack has huge range and it connects too quickly with the first hit of the left click combo. Really cheap combo and I've seen people using a macro of this.