Feedback needed - Weapons, Basic

  • There is some delay on the first shot, I've tried it just now and I already knew anyway: you can cancel it with your shield if you're fast enough. I also tried to spam it like you said, didn't reach anywhere near this rate of fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGe9YGgaIow

    But if that's fine with you, then try bringing it to a real game to see how well it fares.

    The delay on the first shot didn't bother me while doing that, however, try this: bind your skill on either wheel up or wheel down. It's the fastest way to spam shield aside from macro. Then, shoot gauss while scrolling up or down. As it turns out, it doesn't work all that well (in fact, not at all with my mouse, worse than spamming even though it activates shield way more often). That's because if you're spamming shift this rapidly, suddenly cancelling your gauss shots becomes an issue. You might not even notice that it's cancelling them since it's doing so extremely rapidly, but your rate of fire is going to suffer. Because of that, getting a good firerate with that technique is extremely hard and even potentially impossible.

    The guy on the video is using a macro, just read the comments

  • You do know that there's 2 different type of dodge feints right? Next time you get Bat Jumped, press space then dodge. It literally costs no more SP than a normal dodge, and so you can do it several times. I could show you proof in game some time if you're interested.

    Isn't that what is called speed counter? Recovering from the stagger and then being able to normaly do things again e.g. dodge like you said or attack? That is the reason why it sometimes is a complete failure to attack the carrier in front of the goal with the bat jump attack. Of course this makes any changes I proclaimed obsolete. That's why I said, it had to be removed for the stagger from the bat jump attack.

    But really. I'm a guy.


    Have a nice day.

  • Isn't that what is called speed counter? Recovering from the stagger and then being able to normaly do things again e.g. dodge like you said or attack? That is the reason why it sometimes is a complete failure to attack the carrier in front of the goal with the bat jump attack. Of course this makes any changes I proclaimed obsolete. That's why I said, it had to be removed for the stagger from the bat jump attack.

    That just means you aren't using it at the right time. A Bat JA should be used to finish someone off, (If you're using it on the ball carrier especially). In other cases it'd be better to smack them away with the Swing to deny them space. The thing you're talking about though can be done with any attack that inflicts staggers, and it's a mechanic in the game. You're wanting to use a JA that breaks revenge, and denies players space without giving them that advantage? Why not use Breaker or PS JA, (or some kind of Gun)?

  • Folks:

    I'm likong the perspectives, but please, keep it simple, and save the discussions for a different forum branch.


    SMBB

  • That just means you aren't using it at the right time. A Bat JA should be used to finish someone off, (If you're using it on the ball carrier especially). In other cases it'd be better to smack them away with the Swing to deny them space. The thing you're talking about though can be done with any attack that inflicts staggers, and it's a mechanic in the game. You're wanting to use a JA that breaks revenge, and denies players space without giving them that advantage? Why not use Breaker or PS JA, (or some kind of Gun)?

    Change it up a bit. And I would like for the bat to change a bit. I love to swing people away or smash their heads in and you got me a new Idea. Yeah, the bat JA should be used to finish off enemys. That's why I want it to be harder to land a hit with (like explained in my first post) and why it should not be countered by smashing the space bar (yeah, pushing it once at the right time does the trick, but some surely just smash (random bracket to seperate two words, who would otherwise be censored) it repeatedly). So why not making the bat stagger an exception? Or make the swing after the hit faster. But you are right, then it would be too good. That's were the new idea comes in: The less hp someone has left, the more dmg the bat does. But against someone with a lot of hp left, it isn't really leathal. So the bat would really be a weapon to either finish off your opponent, or smack him away. So if you hit someone with the difficult to land JA who has a lot of hp, you at least are rewarded with a free smack away, so it isn't obsolete.


    Have a nice day,

    Tasja

    But really. I'm a guy.


    Have a nice day.

  • The guy on the video is using a macro, just read the comments

    Yeah no sh*t, I already know that. What I'm saying is that getting the most out of gauss rifle is extremely hard, I don't see how the fact that this guy is using a macro goes against my argument (I used that vid to showcase what I believe is close to the maximum potential fire rate). At this stage I have no idea what point you're trying to make. And like I said, if you're not fast enough then it's not even worth playing over semi-rifle for example. I doubt your managed to got to a good fire rate spamming shift after 1 minute of learning like you said, and if you did, I sure want to see you try to make use of it in a real match.


    That said, although whether or not gauss hugging is powerful is kind of relevant to the topic of balance, I think there are more important things to be said, so if you want to continue this conversation I'd rather it be in private.


    On the topic of balance, concerning airhugging, it just frustrates me when people criticise advanced techniques with marginal uses under the pretext that they are "bugs" or "unintended". Like, what do you know about how effective it is if you can't use it and if it has never ever ever won a single tournament? Don't go ruining people's fun because of your faulty evaluation of its power level.

  • First off, I hope you guys don't take into account all the suggestions. Ones like limiting the amount of times a PS can stun you is terrible, So is adding sp to revenge and changing its stun mechanic. Let us go with the old phrase. If it aint broke, dont fix it.


    Dagger - Prevent WSAD from cancelling the animation and give bonus damage when hit directly from the rear (its an assassination weapon that should have a high risk reward factor)

    Katana - Heavy attack breaks revenge. Ether increase the ground animation speed or increase the damage. It hits too slow and the damage is too low. You cant have low attack speed and low damage relatively speaking.

    Sigma Blade - As a sigma blade user all I can say is that it only needs stun immunity from cs revenge similar to how boots function. Maybe a defense increase if possible.

    Dual magnums - remove the auto aiming and give it a fixed pattern. Increase the damage on the right click attacks and the push as well. This way you dont just get style points for doing the acrobatics. Make it similar to the rocket launcher. The right click does more damage but takes up more ammo. This way it could be a great finisher when you get an enemy down to a certain life.

    Breaker - Slow down the jump attack's speed a little. Slow down the breaker light swing, its too fast and is comparable to a dagger slash.

    Hand Gun - give it a better pattern and that's it

    Assault Rifle - Reduce the movement speed when firing. -15%


    RAIL GUN - FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS ON THIS ONE WITHOUT DEVIATION. FIRST YOU WILL FIND A SUPER OLD S4 CLIENT > NEXT YOU WILL CHECK THE CLIENT FOR THE OLD RAIL GUN'S CODE > YOU WILL THEN COPY IT AND PASTE IT OVER THE ABOMINATION THAT GAME ON CREATED > DO NOT ATTEMPT TO NERF THE CURRENT RAIL GUN. NOT ONLY IS THE CURRENT RAIL GUN OP, IT IS CLUNKY AND CLUMSY.

    Old Rail gun was a perfect weapon,

    If we cant do what I suggested, simply remove the uncharged shots' ability to throw people and instead have it flinch characters like it once did. Second remove the slow effect from charge shots and give it the original effect where it flung people away after hitting them. It was fun and you felt the impact. Next remove random crits if you haven't and give it back the ability to headshot (its a sniping weapon, accuracy must be rewarded!) Make headshots for charged rail shots be a 1 hit kill.


    Skills


    Metallic - Worthless

    Metallic reflect should do double damage (yes, double damage). Second Increase the speed one goes in metallic and exits it. Also maybe give the user two other poses lol.

  • I like the metallic one. It's only useful on chaser, not even that. Please, make it have a 200% head defense boost. I'm tired of espontaneously die when they shoot directly at my face.

    The only good monster is the one that is dead.

    - Goblin Slayer Veteran Hunter

  • Global

    Stuns: Make it so you can't re-apply stun to an already stunned target, (stun lock shouldn't be a thing). This way in order to have a similar effect one must properly time their stuns for the moment their target leaves the stunned state.

  • Global

    Stuns: Make it so you can't re-apply stun to an already stunned target, (stun lock shouldn't be a thing). This way in order to have a similar effect one must properly time their stuns for the moment their target leaves the stunned state.

    Giving it a cooldown after sucessfull stun is also an option

  • Please consider this:


    eSper Chipsets Style and Solid Trait Swap [Buff/Balance]

    Please swap the Recovery by Heal on Style Shirt chips with SP Regen on Solid Shoes chips and buff the effects in favor of both eSper chipsets.

    SP efficiency is the main attribute of the Style chipsets. Its SP recovery rate should also reflect that. Further, the SP recovery has been at an all-time low rate since its inception into pet enchants, therefore, please give it a bigger output. The same goes for solid. Solid is built for defense. The health recovery trait complements that.


    Thanks,




    -SMBB

  • Solid is built for defense and SP. It gives the most SP out of any set, and its F skill consumes a lot of SP. Though I agree that the green set has pretty bad stats overall due to HP recovery rate being useless.

  • its not useless just almost nobody plays unlimited nowadays

    When it comes to sta-2, heal is pretty underwhelming currently, and as for death match the green F skill is pretty bad, you're better off using blue. Blue is already absurdly powerful in death match, defense and healing pair well together and the F skill allows you to cheat death which is all the more valuable when you consider that you can get healed to full afterwards.


    Heal has been underperforming in sta-2 lately. What's the point in trying to keep the carrier alive when you can just pick up after them (especially now that boots are a thing)? When you keep healing the carrier, you invest a lot into a push (SP, HP, a weapon slot, putting yourself in a dangerous spot), and if the push fails it's unlikely you're going to make it back to defend the counter push in time and still have enough resources to do so. With MKII heal you can hope to force your way through the entire enemy team, but the only way you're going to get a good rusher on top of a healer that knows what they're doing is if you're stacking, in which case whatever, you're stacking so you were going to win no matter what.


    So yeah, HP recovery up, pretty useless attribute.

  • "Iron Boots

    -Reduce the movement speed and increase the SP consumption. It is used as a scoring tool and not as weapon.

    -Increase the damage or reduce the cooldowns of the basic attacks. The basic attacks are literally useless considering they makes you stand still for a long time after using them." #Hella

    Demon Fist :

    - Reduce the damage of the light attack


    Bat :

    - Reduce the Strike Range


    Breaker :

    - Reduce the damage of the push


    Vital Shock :

    - Increase the damage of every attack of this weapon

  • Solid is built for defense and SP. It gives the most SP out of any set, and its F skill consumes a lot of SP. Though I agree that the green set has pretty bad stats overall due to HP recovery rate being useless.

    Good Perspective:


    [eSper Chipset(Style): Buff] Since Style is built for SP efficiency, then how about an added effect for eSper level four or five, instead? Every movement, attack, and skill will have a 10~20% SP reduction on top of the enchants for shoes and accessories. This will also cover charged attacks and SP-Draining attacks for all SP-consuming weapons.

    Reason: Style is built for SP efficiency, and if the other options are inconsiderable, then this is the best route to take. If that's still not viable, then Weapon SP consumption should decrease under Style Level four or five's effect.

  • [eSper Chipset(Style): Buff] Since Style is built for SP efficiency, then how about an added effect for eSper level four or five, instead? Every movement, attack, and skill will have a 10~20% SP reduction on top of the enchants for shoes and accessories. This will also cover charged attacks and SP-Draining attacks for all SP-consuming weapons.

    Reason: Style is built for SP efficiency, and if the other options are inconsiderable, then this is the best route to take. If that's still not viable, then Weapon SP consumption should decrease under Style Level four or five's effect.

    Well, that's basically the same as a +10~20% max SP increase (stamina regens faster the more max SP you have already). I wouldn't mind if the style chips gave more than 4 SP (with an additional 3 SP from the pants like in every set), so I would be okay with that change.

    I think one of the issues with that set is that the F skill is pretty bad. Or so I've heard, I'm too short on pen to get an idea for myself. It's a shame though, I like that F skill better than the others, since it changes the way the user plays the game in a significant way (or it would, if it was stronger), rather than just being something you press every X seconds.


    But the thing is, having a chip whose only purpose is mobility isn't a good thing. I don't like the idea of dedicated rushers who are subpar at everything that doesn't involve running the ball (not fun to play against or in the same team as), and that's the kind of playstyle that benefits from green chips as they are.

    So, what I would do instead is give the green set a damage increase (instead of HP when healed), to fit into the quick and deadly (but dies fast) archetype.

  • Well, that's basically the same as a +10~20% max SP increase (stamina regens faster the more max SP you have already). I wouldn't mind if the style chips gave more than 4 SP (with an additional 3 SP from the pants like in every set), so I would be okay with that change.

    I think one of the issues with that set is that the F skill is pretty bad. Or so I've heard, I'm too short on pen to get an idea for myself. It's a shame though, I like that F skill better than the others, since it changes the way the user plays the game in a significant way (or it would, if it was stronger), rather than just being something you press every X seconds.


    But the thing is, having a chip whose only purpose is mobility isn't a good thing. I don't like the idea of dedicated rushers who are subpar at everything that doesn't involve running the ball (not fun to play against or in the same team as), and that's the kind of playstyle that benefits from green chips as they are.

    So, what I would do instead is give the green set a damage increase (instead of HP when healed), to fit into the quick and deadly (but dies fast) archetype.

    The F-skill for Style chipsets is a kin to a crutched dodge... One can't switch weapons while the animation is in progress. Further, it consumes 25 SP, while not experiencing the same SP reduction as a normal evade. In some cases, it's better than a sideway evade, because of approach, angle and setup, but its lack of tuning leaves much to be desired.


    Then there's the SP reduction of all weapons that consume SP. Style needs this. Sure, they buffed a few weapons that were hogging too much SP to dish out attacks, in order to have enough to get out of the way. That's only some - not all. It's time to enhance it for better combat speed.


    Edit: Lastly, what you are suggesting is that the Style inherits a damage increase... such as... Defense Piercing? In that case, it will bolster a nifty perk.

  • Edit: Lastly, what you are suggesting is that the Style inherits a damage increase... such as... Defense Piercing? In that case, it will bolster a nifty perk.

    Defence piercing is RNG dependent and we've already got enough RNG BS in the game (1% def piercing = 1% chance to pierce through all of the defense). I'm talking straight up attack. And in case anyone is wondering, it wouldn't make red chips obsolete, since red chips also increase health by a significant amount.

    But I actually quite like your idea of specifically decreasing SP consumption of attacks. If the upgrade is significant enough, it might enable some interesting playstyles and it's not something that rushers can use to score more.

  • I personally think wings need a buff. I’ve been using it at 2nd half most of the time in td cause I like wing dashing but when my sp drops instantly from like 1 bullet.....takes the fun out of it. Maybe make it so that no sp drops when taking dmg, don’t see why it does in the 1st place. There are binds and plenty of ppl to shoot you down and sp already drops by using it and when you have fumbi.

  • I personally think wings need a buff. I’ve been using it at 2nd half most of the time in td cause I like wing dashing but when my sp drops instantly from like 1 bullet.....takes the fun out of it. Maybe make it so that no sp drops when taking dmg, don’t see why it does in the 1st place. There are binds and plenty of ppl to shoot you down and sp already drops by using it and when you have fumbi.

    How are you going to stop a wingdash then?

  • okay, I can see how it would be rlly strong in small rooms, 4vs4 and below. I guess decrease the sp drop when taking dmg instead, right now it depletes to fast I say.

    That's a good observation:


    That's also why I'm voting for better SP consumption efficiency for the Style chipset, which specializes in that avenue.

  • That's a good observation:


    That's also why I'm voting for better SP consumption efficiency for the Style chipset, which specializes in that avenue.

    The SP is all over the place in this game. There has been a significant speed/SP creep over the years to a point that some of the maps now feels incredibly small (especially st1) compared to before and you can get across them faster than anyone can respawn. The game really doesn't need more SP boosts.


    Btw the wingdash was probably not even intended mechanic considering it basically a cancel exploit.


    Please consider this:


    eSper Chipsets Style and Solid Trait Swap [Buff/Balance]

    Please swap the Recovery by Heal on Style Shirt chips with SP Regen on Solid Shoes chips and buff the effects in favor of both eSper chipsets.

    SP efficiency is the main attribute of the Style chipsets. Its SP recovery rate should also reflect that. Further, the SP recovery has been at an all-time low rate since its inception into pet enchants, therefore, please give it a bigger output. The same goes for solid. Solid is built for defense. The health recovery trait complements that.


    Thanks,

    Those doesn't need buffs. It is the strong chip that needs serious nerf.

  • I can understand your speculation:


    The chipsets appear to be fine as they are. This still doesn't rule out the need for tuning. If anything is to be done for Style chipsets, then, F-skill needs weapon swapping and disabled auto-reload during its forward slide animation for better followup attacks, platforming, etc... The passive trait of SP reduction of using gauge-intensive moves should still be considered.

  • Since we're on the topic of chips, I don't think they're fine as they are currently.


    The strong set's reliance on random crits is unnecessary and reduces its skill ceiling (unless random crits stack with actual crits). Its F skill feels bad to play against, it just kind of feels like you're being robbed whenever you get killed by it and that you just have to accept it (partly because of server lag leading to hits connecting when on your screen they shouldn't). And from what I've heard, it feels clunky to use despite its range (I can't elaborate more on that since I've never used it).


    The solid set's F skill is also frustrating to play against. Nobody has enough bullets to deal with a blue chip user's health bar with the defense upgrade and with the F skill that seems to come up fairly often (well unless HMG is involved). And it just seems extremely boring. It's shield without the vulnerability to melee and without the animation cancel shenanigans.


    The orange set's F skill is also BS, I don't know the range exactly since I've never played it (and the hitbox isn't exactly obvious from looking at it) but I don't feel like I ever have much agency when it comes to whether I get hit or I don't, and getting hit is synonymous with death. The worst part is that the orange set, having weak stats, relies a lot on the F skill, which explains why it has such a short cooldown.


    Those F skills would feel more fair if there was a visual indicator for other players when they are ready to be used.

    But I think they have the potential to be more than something you press once and then forget about until it's no longer on cooldown. They could change the way the game is played significantly and add some variety when it comes to playstyle (the green F skill kind of does that, except that it's too weak).


    Here are some examples:

    - for the orange set, a throw like in fighting games. S4 league already shares some similarities with fighting games, and it's fair in that it generally has a short range. Of course prevent people from being able to throw others out of the map or into lasers.

    -for the red set, a sort of "frenzy mode", where in exchange for a percentage of your HP, you become faster and deal more damage for a certain period (but cannot be healed cuz that would be OP).

    -Another idea for the red set, a powerful melee attack that you can only use when your HP dips below something like 10%.


    But it's just an afterthought of course since reworking F skills is probably going to take a while.

  • How long has this thread has been open now lol. Are they still collecting feedback? Any of the data collected will actually be implemented? Only time ( long time probably) will tell.

  • How long has this thread has been open now lol. Are they still collecting feedback? Any of the data collected will actually be implemented? Only time ( long time probably) will tell.

    is there a reason to be locked? It is not like the feedback ends with one change.

  • is there a reason to be locked? It is not like the feedback ends with one change.

    O i never said it should be locked. I just simply was wondering. From the outside looking in, seems like the "changes" are stagnant. Maybe I just lack patience :(😭

  • There are 2 things I would rlly like to see, an option to disable enchants when making a room and remove “hide info”. The number of times I joined an almost full guns room to find out the enemy team has 2 healers, 2 bombers, ect and my team has half snipers and strikers with no striker weap and when we do have one striker with a striker weap, he never goes for the ball. This is why I always need to equip one striker char and the 2nd char is in case we do have the right strikers but no support of some kind, bombs, crowd control, heal, ect. Removing hide info would fix this problem and we will all have better games.

  • What different does it make you some of you would like to keep yall information hidden too plus it will be much to fun if I don't know what people have I don't won't no 10 minute game it's just boring

  • GenjuMadaMada , Hiding info is needed for the game. Because if a RM don't like what they see. The person might get kick. That how abusive the community can turn. Plus its never fun to order people around. Having people knowing the weapon they use just ruin the fun. People on the other team will try to match what the other team had thats bad. People will often bash in players calling them noobs. That will make the game environment more toxic. The feature has to many downside and why it never going happen.


    As for disable enchant/chip that will never happen. Because those are too important in the game. The only thing we need is "Stats Limiter" I remember there one, but it was never implemented in the game. I think.


    Lastly for everyone. A reminder this thread is "Weapons Thread (Guns&Swords) not a game feature thread like skills, chips, etc above. Kara will likely make a thread about game feature #Soon in the future.

  • GenjuMadaMada , Hiding info is needed for the game. Because if a RM don't like what they see. The person might get kick. That how abusive the community can turn. Plus its never fun to order people around. Having people knowing the weapon they use just ruin the fun. People on the other team will try to match what the other team had thats bad. People will often bash in players calling them noobs. That will make the game environment more toxic. The feature has to many downside and why it never going happen.


    As for disable enchant/chip that will never happen. Because those are too important in the game. The only thing we need is "Stats Limiter" I remember there one, but it was never implemented in the game. I think.


    Lastly for everyone. A reminder this thread is "Weapons Thread (Guns&Swords) not a game feature thread like skills, chips, etc above. Kara will likely make a thread about game feature #Soon in the future.

    Well I can see your point and agree to some extent with you, however this is a only sword problem. Getting a more toxic game environment? Wanna see that with all the insults and show offs on s4db where they have to post their wins with ez etc. These are just childs that just can't get over it. It is a game lel.


    They are important because without it you are a noob or what? Don't see any reason to have enchant/chip in the game. Actually they make the game worse and not better.


    Hopefully you read your reminder too because if you care so much about what this thread is about you wouldn't have reacted to this post.