Create-a-Room Mk. 2.0

  • Hello, Leaguers, World Members, and Dominic Associates:


    Allow me to propose this weapon limit for all other game rooms: Custom limit.


    Custom limit is an upgraded version of S4 League's current create-a-room settings & GUI, allowing customizable weapon permissions similar to that of selecting the defaults: unlimited, swords-only(SO), guns-only, Arcade-only, or Chaser-only. The display can be a list of checkboxes that room masters can modify, while all others can observe. The check list will span all the weapons, guns, snipers, bombs, drones, swords both sharp and blunt, and their Mark 2 variants. The same idea can span across the skills as well, giving players the ability to isolate the match's, allowed, weapon loadouts more effectively.


    For example, what if melee users wanted to use one, some, or all of the unlimited/guns skills in SO? Now, they can do that. What if they wanted to use healing or explosive weapons in said SO match? Now, they can do that. What if the players wanted to deny the use sniper rifles? Now, they can do that. What if the developers wanted to implement this under the mask of a new post-Glitch season, called Framework? Now, they can (with all intents and purposes) do that.


    This same implementation can make it easier to detect cheaters who want to use specific weapons that are currently denied by these new permissions. The Custom limit is great; In fact, the other game modes (unlimited, guns, swords) can be implemented on top of this idea by use of their own checkboxes when selecting the room's properties. The GUI can be a second tab above the window, and the design can be scaled from a 2xN list in 800x600 aspect ratio to a KxN list (K and N are positive integers of 2 or greater).


    Custom Limit Mk. 2


    [Pros]

    Customizable matches and weapon limits

    Grants access to more unique gameplay experiences that aren't hampered by risks of 'Rule Breakers'

    [Cons]

    Takes time to implement, debug, and compile for an older game that doesn't have a proper sub-folder file system for most of the data.

    Can be 'abused' by players, in which case behooves other players to uphold the option of not playing in said room with 'abused' rules.


    Do you eSpers, Game Masters, Developers, Leaguers think that this implementation is doable and beneficial to the core of Netsphere? Do you think that some things require a change? What other mechanics do you think require modification? Let us know in the comments below.


    SMBB

    E-I-T

  • Oh wow. What a great and original idea that was never posted in the forums before and was never properly discussed.

    sTOP BEING A MEANIE EVERYWHERE -3-! <3
    stilloveyou

    BTW, these threads are so useful during this time of initial dev joruney of aeria c: so let them come ahah
    I agree that it would be so useful to have custom rules c: also to create fun matches and fun GM hunt room and other events with only specific weapons! ^^
    Yes, it can be abused, but it's already something that there is in-game x) (room names, weapon limitation is there) so I don't think that it would be too negative x)

  • I remember the username, if you aren't a fake, you should know the exactly how this will end. The collective answer is no. The game is already being choked by limitations, encouraging further limitations will only help kill the game faster. To me, if they introduced such a feature exclusively for locked rooms only, I would agree, but public matches should be left alone from such options as they could create unnecessary frustration amongst the player base looking for a room.


    sTOP BEING A MEANIE EVERYWHERE -3-! <3
    stilloveyou

    BTW, these threads are so useful during this time of initial dev joruney of aeria c: so let them come ahah
    I agree that it would be so useful to have custom rules c: also to create fun matches and fun GM hunt room and other events with only specific weapons! ^^
    Yes, it can be abused, but it's already something that there is in-game x) (room names, weapon limitation is there) so I don't think that it would be too negative x)

    Room names can be freely ignored:
    01fa277205fc6495864b77ec733e92f0.png

    But beyond that, those limitations are a bad idea to begin with. How many people do you think this game has lost due to these subcultures? How many people do you think CBPD has killed off? Just looking at it, you are unlikely to know exactly what it means, imagine entering room after room trying to find one to play in, all of them blocking weapons you like? Just imagine how many new players enforcing that sort of mentality will kill off.



    I can see it now, many farm rooms with Mind Energy set as the only allowed weapon, and with no F, and while also allowing players the freedom use all skills at the same time.


    It was a mistake to give players any form of control in the past, (votekick), and it'd be best if we didn't repeat such a mistake again.

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOurW7dT5cSc6XKJPJOki-dcRU6BXBztT_oelaL5hWvuLYu4NJoA

    To me, Vote kick in itself was a mistake, the amount of in game complaining and moaning goes down when ever it is disabled. It may have it's uses, but seeing those uses properly used is a rarity in itself.

  • Vote kick will be free to go once the game is totally free from hackers. I only used it agaisnt such at the end of the day, it's on the community's fault for giving it a bad use imo. Thing is, vote-kick should be moderated to some point and that incluides giving some serious rules of using to it.


    On the "CPDB" rooms limitations or any other kind of title limitations, i find it normal for people to create rooms with their own rules, it is their room after all. BUT, i can't deny the fact that it has become a bad trend, but once again, i can't blame anyone for wanting a balanced match with weapons that don't throw you all around the map with absurd range or damage deal.. I can't blame anyone around this community for banning the actual rail-gun off THEIR room

  • Vote kick will be free to go once the game is totally free from hackers. I only used it agaisnt such at the end of the day, it's on the community's fault for giving it a bad use imo. Thing is, vote-kick should be moderated to some point and that incluides giving some serious rules of using to it.


    On the "CPDB" rooms limitations or any other kind of title limitations, i find it normal for people to create rooms with their own rules, it is their room after all. BUT, i can't deny the fact that it has become a bad trend, but once again, i can't blame anyone for wanting a balanced match with weapons that don't throw you all around the map with absurd range or damage deal.. I can't blame anyone around this community for banning the actual rail-gun off THEIR room

    While I can agree that the system is good in theory, it's flaws also pose a problem, since plenty of people use such flaws to 'abuse the system'. The majority of people do abuse that system, it was discussed at length on a previous forum (I believe it was on alaplaya) while the system was broken. Roughly, 50% wanted it to be removed at that time, while the other 50% wanted it to stay, to which a good majority admitted that they want it to stay in for reasons other than strictly for hackers and bug abusers.


    Also, the game will never be free from hackers. Hackers will always exist. Even if the entire world agrees to outlaw hacking to the point of administering the death penalty if convicted of it, they will still exist. That said, countless people (including myself) have offered solutions to replace the current system, including having the game check the person being accused and kicking them if their values exceed the preset limits based on server data, as such, there are people unwilling to accept these values and will fight against changes that will block them from kicking for whatever reason they wish.

  • I've wanted something like that for a long time. I used to play sniper only rooms when I was bored back when it attracted people, and it was kind of sickening to have to votekick so many illiterate players. Also, I'm all for making it easier to ban OP weapons.


    It was a mistake to give players any form of control in the past, (votekick), and it'd be best if we didn't repeat such a mistake again.

    I mean sure, I bet S5 players for instance wouldn't mind having premium sc*mbags ruin their games.


    Also all the rooms are already "I ban all weapons that counters my choice of weapons."

    I don't think that's quite right. The perceived OPness of certain weapons depends on playstyle. You bet a rusher is going to find that bind for instance is too OP while a fragger is going to find that it's fine. It doesn't mean the room maker is looking for an EZ win while cackling evilly at all the plebs who fall into their trap, they're just getting rid of what they perceive ruin their games in an unfair way.


    Look, if you think that the current state of the meta is conducive to a good experience for players and people shouldn't ban what they perceive is OP, next time we meet just ask me to demonstrate how a single player can ruin the game for everybody when no rules are applied, and I can guarantee you that not many people will have fun aside from me.

  • It's some limitation mode i'd put for fun with no exp/pen gain or count towards any kind of ingame event

    Not a good idea. Pen and exp ultimately translate into force pack weapons and enchant. What you're proposing would separate the free2play community that needs both of those and the paying community that doesn't care and ultimately it would make it harder for people to find a room they like.

  • Not a good idea. Pen and exp ultimately translate into force pack weapons and enchant. What you're proposing would separate the free2play community that needs both of those and the paying community that doesn't care and ultimately it would make it harder for people to find a room they like.

    How about the community just start playing the game in the way that it is intended? I am pretty sure nothing will kills you if X weapon isn't banned from the room.

  • How about the community just start playing the game in the way that it is intended?

    And how about you stop blaming the community for the former devs' horrible take on balance? S4 league's community (especially veteran players) is the best community I've ever seen. Try sitting in any other game and you'll have people wondering what the hell you're doing. I've even gotten reported by somebody for doing so in Overwatch's casual mode. We managed to have an extremely low frequency of homing users at a time when we were all terrible at the game and anybody with a homing rifle could top score with very little difficulty. We managed to make custom rules (OS, and S5 to a certain extent) and have them be respected enough for it to become real modes (S5 had tournaments with IG rewards e.g. custom clan tag).


    The community fought the devs to have a better game, not the other way around (I mean we still don't have an option to search for unlimited games only, how unwilling to give us any quality of life changes have the devs been up to this point?).


    Now, if you (or anyone else) don't think this game's current balance is enough to warrant bans on weapons, I'm willing to prove it to you with the most aimless, brainless piece of OP cr*p build I know of. Just ask me directly when you see me in game.

  • Now, if you (or anyone else) don't think this game's current balance is enough to warrant bans on weapons, I'm willing to prove it to you with the most aimless, brainless piece of OP cr*p build I know of. Just ask me directly when you see me in game.

    We all know there're overpowered weapons, and no one here denied that. There's no need to prove anything, as I'm sure that everyone who's played is well aware of what's OP and what's not. I can understand why players would want unbalanced things out of their rooms "I'm looking at you Rail-gun". The best fixes for this in my opinion would be to balance everything properly, which would take a long time to sort out sadly, and then after everything's at a balanced level remove the ability for players to give the rooms custom names. With Aeria in charge now, Community to Dev talk of balance patches is now a possibility.

  • The best fixes for this in my opinion would be to balance everything properly, which would take a long time to sort out sadly, and then after everything's at a balanced level remove the ability for players to give the rooms custom names.

    You can't "balance everything properly" for at least three reasons that I can think of.

    -Certain weapons are way stronger in certain modes and in certain maps. Mind heal in Death Match is so much stronger than in Sta-2 Touch Down that if it were balanced for Death Match, it would be absolutely useless in Touch Down (an okay work-around would be to give weapons different stats depending on the map and mode, but that is never going to happen for obvious reasons).

    -The strength of any weapon is relative to the level of play. On a same average power level, if the skill ceiling is high, the weapon is going to dominate in rooms where the players are good (current rail gun). If it's too low, it's going to dominate in rooms where people are still learning (Homing, Spark, Fists...). You have to choose who you balance your weapons for, and the weapons are going to remain unbalanced for everyone else. Unless you decide to rework most of the weapons to have a similar skill curve (which I'm all for, but good luck with that).

    -People never agree. In the first place, the state of "balance" is an illusion. Which criteria you base your perception of balance on is arbitrary. Some people are going to want to use data and tell you that balance is 50% winrate, some other people are going to rely on their experience and tell you that nobody knows how to use or how to counter a certain weapon aside from them which invalidates the data, and some freak is going to do spreadsheets with the average DPS values of guns depending on the distance of the target and where you aim or try to analyse frame data for sword moves.


    As a result there's always going to be a gap in power-level between different weapons for most if not all of the player base, and there are always going to be people who perceive that gap as being massive, sometimes for good reasons.


    And also I like making rooms with stupid rules, like sniper only or OS + fly or smash right click only, and I'd like to still be able to do it.

  • They are following it only because they are scared to get kicked.

    No they aren't. Well, maybe you are, but even when people play with enough of their friends (or enough clueless amateurs) to make it impossible for them to get kicked, they respect the rules. People who don't respect these days are amateurs who aren't familiar with the way things are working and, among players who happen to have missed the rules, those who don't want to bother leaving (they're likely to get their spot stollen because of the 20 seconds timer...) or not using their forbidden weapon. And fortunately they end up getting kicked.


    If people want to play weapons that are banned, they just have to leave and go play them against people who don't mind. I don't get how that's a problem.


    Back in the days you just get some hate from the RM and the enemy team but no one really cared that much what you were using.

    I realize we weren't exactly playing on the same server, but the way I remember it, when people didn't respect the room limits, their teammates would just stop playing and leave them to get farmed by 4 people until they rage quit (the hacker procedure).

    Or sometimes people would re-make the room, since it was back when leaving a room didn't mean crashing for a part of the player base.

  • You can't "balance everything properly" for at least three reasons that I can think of.

    -Certain weapons are way stronger in certain modes and in certain maps. Mind heal in Death Match is so much stronger than in Sta-2 Touch Down that if it were balanced for Death Match, it would be absolutely useless in Touch Down (an okay work-around would be to give weapons different stats depending on the map and mode, but that is never going to happen for obvious reasons).

    We already have enchants that take effect in certain modes already, and so a system that changes the strengths and effectiveness of a weapon per mode doesn't sound impossible. (If mode = DM, Damage, Healing -50%, (else if mode = TD: Damage, Healing +25%) just for example. And it wouldn't have to be limited to damage, something like this could effect any on-hit effect as well.

    -The strength of any weapon is relative to the level of play. On a same average power level, if the skill ceiling is high, the weapon is going to dominate in rooms where the players are good (current rail gun). If it's too low, it's going to dominate in rooms where people are still learning (Homing, Spark, Fists...). You have to choose who you balance your weapons for, and the weapons are going to remain unbalanced for everyone else. Unless you decide to rework most of the weapons to have a similar skill curve (which I'm all for, but good luck with that).

    But there are some setups that literally have no weaknesses. Which is something that shouldn't be possible in this game. That's where unbalance truly is, and in a way yeah such a setup is "smart", but at the same time if the setup gets you too much advantage too easily then clearly there must be something broken about it. You mentioned fists as a weapon that dominates rooms where people're still learning, however in OS Fists will beat PS for instance in 1v1 and also have more advantage in crowd control despite having similar moves. You don't have to be skillful to kill with Rail, you just need 2 shots tops, and the first one pretty much guarantees the second one. Some things cannot be answered, at least not fully.

    -People never agree. In the first place, the state of "balance" is an illusion. Which criteria you base your perception of balance on is arbitrary. Some people are going to want to use data and tell you that balance is 50% winrate, some other people are going to rely on their experience and tell you that nobody knows how to use or how to counter a certain weapon aside from them which invalidates the data, and some freak is going to do spreadsheets with the average DPS values of guns depending on the distance of the target and where you aim or try to analyse frame data for sword moves.


    As a result there's always going to be a gap in power-level between different weapons for most if not all of the player base, and there are always going to be people who perceive that gap as being massive, sometimes for good reasons.

    The problem is there's 2 kinds of people. Those who want balance, and those who want to be op in game. The former is much more open for changes, and the latter doesn't want change, because they can only have fun if there's no effort involved in playing. The latter type shouldn't complain if their weapon setup is no longer able to drop 3 or more people at once while taking minimal damage.


    Here's the honest truth, there are weapons you take "If you want to win", and weapons that you take "If you want to have fun". The former in this case is everyone go to on switch if the latter is useless. Either nerf the op weapons, or make all the weapons broken to match them also.

  • We already have enchants that take effect in certain modes already, and so a system that changes the strengths and effectiveness of a weapon per mode doesn't sound impossible. (If mode = DM, Damage, Healing -50%, (else if mode = TD: Damage, Healing +25%) just for example. And it wouldn't have to be limited to damage, something like this could effect any on-hit effect as well.

    I like the idea of having it be referenced directly in the weapon's stats. I have never played a game where developers balanced weapons or characters depending on the game mode, but I guess if there's a way to make the information easy to process there's no reason not to do it. Well now we've just gotta convince the devs.

    But there are some setups that literally have no weaknesses. Which is something that shouldn't be possible in this game. That's where unbalance truly is, and in a way yeah such a setup is "smart", but at the same time if the setup gets you too much advantage too easily then clearly there must be something broken about it.

    You're thinking for high-level play right now. If a setup has no weakness apart from its user messing up at important moments, then it can still be balanced or even not strong enough at low levels of play, since players that aren't quite good tend to mess up at important moments.


    You don't have to be skillful to kill with Rail

    Whether or not you have to be good to play rail gun, there is no doubt you benefit greatly from being good. Theoretically, you could kill all the enemies all the time, without them having a single chance to retaliate. That's the reason why it has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game, and even if you decide that rail gun is too strong in all levels of play, you still need to make the decision of whether you want to balance it for bionically enhanced demi-gods or Joe Dalton and a Stormtrooper's love child.


    Quote


    The problem is there's 2 kinds of people. Those who want balance, and those who want to be op in game.

    That's the wrong way to look at it. Everybody wants balance. Nobody openly criticizes a change that they feel is justified. Try to find an example of somebody saying unironically something like "I don't want X weapon to get nerfed. I want to continue ruining people's games and win games that I don't deserve to win". People always have some kind of argument, like saying that people who complain are just bad or stuff like that. But it's only natural that players who use a weapon are more familiar with its disadvantages, and that people who play against it are more familiar with the struggle that comes with playing against it.

    But people tend to think that anybody who has good intentions and a working brain should at all times agree with them.

    Here's the honest truth, there are weapons you take "If you want to win", and weapons that you take "If you want to have fun".

    That's also my experience with the current meta, and it's pretty frustrating.

  • Interesting:


    I can see some of your valid points and how they raise concerns - especially regarding the issue of 'giving players too much power in a game [as mature as S4].' For all of today's Sword Only (SO) matches, we're limited to using only HP, SP, and Dual Mastery. Therefore [S4 League Staff], I ask you this:


    Please, make a SO-Weapon limit that includes most (if not all) of the games current skills, or update the current weapon limitations. In the same manner, as we have the Arcade and Chaser weapon limits, can we also have a newer custom weapon limit.


    Using the skills, that normally are used in Guns/Unlimited weapon limits, will grant additional health and skill points to the player - but not too much to outweigh the Half-HP Mastery or Dual Mastery


    Doing this will open a newer kind of gameplay experience without completely breaking the game's core ideas, and if some skills are too overused and/or overpowered, those skills can be petitioned for removal within the next few patches.


    SMBB

    E-I-T

  • Detect would actually be kinda useful in OS since you won't have to worry about getting shot. Invisible would be kinda fun in there too for Assassin types. Bind would be kinda cheesy in OS, but at the same time you'd pretty much have to be in their attack range in order to get the kill anyway. It'd add a bit more tact into OS rather than just search and destroy. Shield would only be somewhat useful for blocking bind or being another CS dodge alternative. But if it'd be the dodge you're after, and don't care about shield just take Invisible.


    As long as Fly, Anchor, and Block aren't allowed then sure. Why I wouldn't want the first two in OS would be obvious, but as for block....Even though it'd be convenient to pull up a wall to smack people into, we all know there'll be trolls that block stack to unreachable places. In OS we shouldn't have any vertical advantage skills present, Just my 2 cents.

  • Bind would be way too powerful in SO, there's nothing to contest its range, and once a player is bound you can just spam them with BRK JA. You might as well allow rail gun.

    Or you could spam them with breaker jump. In SO, bind could be more balanced really, both players have to deal damage with close range, meanwhile, in unlimited, several people use bind and then wall shoot their opponent to death. That couldn't happen in SO.

  • Or you could spam them with breaker jump. In SO, bind could be more balanced really, both players have to deal damage with close range, meanwhile, in unlimited, several people use bind and then wall shoot their opponent to death. That couldn't happen in SO.

    ^ This, and there're several things you could do if you get bound in SO with skills. Metallic for one, or Fist right click, or Br/Tb jump, stun attacks, charge attacks etc. almost anything would work since they'd have to get in your range to get a kill. There's also F skills on top of all of that. What kind of problem would bind be when you can just Red F them when after they come in for the kill? Or if you Blue F after getting bound?

  • Or you could spam them with breaker jump

    First off, maybe you don't have a breaker, there are plenty of people who don't use it.

    Secondly, it's just one of the ways you could cheese people who are bound, it's not like it hard to trick somebody who can't move into attacking and thus being vulnerable while you're not quite in range.

    Also, even if you don't kill the dude, it can still allow you to safely stop the carrier, giving your teammates time to respawn or allowing you to prepare a push that they can't counter because lag.


    Metallic for one, or Fist right click, or Br/Tb jump, stun attacks, charge attacks

    Once again, what happens if I don't have metallic. also, the other stuff you've mentioned has either lower range than breaker or is way slower (meaning that you'd get cancelled by the breaker). As for F skills, you do realise that not everybody has access to them right?

    in unlimited, several people use bind and then wall shoot their opponent to death. That couldn't happen in SO.

    I never said bind was fine in unlimited, in my opinion it should go. But like I said, in unlimited at least while you're trying to bind someone you need to be in range and risk getting shredded by their guns. In SO you could spam bind with almost no consequence as long as you're far enough.


    But I mean, if you want to try that out, then let's have some SO V1s, I pick bind.

  • The argument is that they have to get in your range for you to be in theirs. There are attacks that out reach Br jump. Cs/Boots Heavy for two off the top of my head. Fist/PS stun, Vital Suction, Fist right click actually hits just as far as Br jump. TB Jump range also rivals both of those as does its ground hit (due to a bug). All charge attacks in the game would outreach Br jump. Also almost every melee weapon aside from Dagger and Sigma has some way to match Br in terms of range. Unless you intend to go Ps/Dag only no stun style only then I don't see your problem.


    Oh and i'm well aware not everyone has F skills. Clearly the option still stands though if said person does have it. We know they'll use it if they can.


    Edit: On a side note, the bind would eliminate on hit Push effect their Br would normally have on you. So you could literally just heavy with Cs/Ib/Katana/whatever afterwards to trade damage with them. I really think some things should be experimented with before they're heavily criticized.

  • Okay so after playing a few duels against Fazoodle, it doesn't seem like bind would be as OP as I thought in OS (The loss of SP turned out to be a big deal, and like Fazoodle said, there are ways to retaliate when bound).

    It should be noted however that it could still be an issue in Touch Down, or outside of 1V1 and that there may be ways to cheese people that we haven't thought of (most effective I've tried is probably bind + fist right click, but it requires a lot of SP and you take some damage anyway before right clicks hits).

    Also, neither of us had that good of a bind aim. In other words, further testing may be required.