Feedback needed - improving gamemodes

  • Hello fellow leaguers,


    this is a thing that has spooked through my mind for some time.


    How can we improve S4 regarding its gamemodes?


    Please consider this question to be somewhat systematic towards the modes. I'd suggest we bring up ideas that help whole modes, while map improvements for example have space in another (maybe later coming thread)


    S4 was (and imo still is) known to have massive potential, yet at times it feels underwhelming. Let's try bringing it to great heights.





    (Thread- naming-idea taken from Karasakal)

    ((if a thread like this already exists and i am too dumb to find it, please do tell me)

    Kind regards,

    Yaita

  • Here now come some of my thoughts.



    General

    //this is considerign all modes, some with higher priority


    Suggestion: Remove the buff system


    Explanation: The buffs don'd add anything useful to the game. Instant respawn (towards DM,BR and Siege) and tracking (towards DM) in particular are toxic in my opinion. To make an example: DM is about getting information about enemy movement, locations and weapons at locations. Tracking just disables defensive positioning abilities. Please just remove that.

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    Edit-Suggestion: Prematurely disable the spawn protection the moment a shot is fired or an attack is cast


    Explanation: It feels strange being able to fire while being immune (even more so from the other side). Spawn protection is a nice thing, i remember the railgun spawncampers in TD firing at spawntimings. So keep it, but give enemies near the spawn a chance of counterplay.



    Death match

    Suggestion : limit every side's max points to half the match's total points (e.g 50 when it is a 30 min/100p match). Bring up a 2nd seperate score for the 2nd half. Add together both towards the end.


    Explanation: The DM maps aren't meant to be symmetrical, therefore can be quite unbalanced. Let's say there is a map where the A-side (same team strength) totally dominates [most extreme case : 50:0] a half. Sides switch, the other team dominates the half and make it to an ending score [extreme once more] of 50:100.

    This change is to prevent said kind of cases.


    Problem: S4 has a character system that allows for half time switches. This is a nice system, meant to be able to bring counters or simply switch playstyle after half time, meaning, the 2nd half might be meant to overpower an opponent's score.


    Summary:

    I'd like to give this a time frame for testing. If it fails or is disliked due to named or other reasons, just take it back, no trouble.




    Touch down


    Suggestion: Make all maps symmetrical (point or axis, depending on the map of course).


    Explanation: There are some specific locations causing interesting interactions that should or should not be there on both sides equally. If i am going to make a map-thread i'll bring this up too, but this is not about a single map. (The tunnel spawn-wall-reset and the St-2 bridge pillar are known examples)




    Siege


    Suggestion: Remove the drops from the objectives. Decrease (or set to 0) the points gained for a kill. Siege points are now obtained by


    [either] which team has more objectives under control (speed depending on how much more: +1 low, +2 medium, +3 fast)


    [or] how many objectives are captured at a given time by a team (meaning at one point in time both teams would gain points depending on how many objectivess they have captured)


    // might need a skill balancing (eg removing metallic, perhaps shield)


    EDIT-suggestion: capture progress isn't lost if the objective is left.


    Explanation: At the moment, Siege is just a different version of Death match. You can win by solely playing this like a DM and getting 2 points for a kill, while not caring for the siege points at all, which is i think not the intended version of this mode. The capture points go back and forth simply because you don't gain points while you control a point, but the moment you are capturing one. So let's bring the focus to control the objectives. The point drops (green) are imo made to make the mode what i suggested above but with point stealing potential, which is imo unneccessary.

  • Forgot to mention add damage pity back to DM so there to be actually a point in continuing playing the lost match that you just have joined.


    Siege


    Suggestion: Remove the drops from the objectives. Decrease (or set to 0) the points gained for a kill. Siege points are now obtained by

    No. Having buffs on the point makes the teams moving around instead of camping.

    Siege is probably one of the best balanced modes atm. You can chose to capture or DM depending on the situations and how your enemy plays.

  • No. Having buffs on the point makes the teams moving around instead of camping.

    Siege is probably one of the best balanced modes atm. You can chose to capture or DM depending on the situations and how your enemy plays.

    I see the camping point. Ofc this'd need testing.

    What helps with this might be the following idea: The Siege maps as of how they exist now have 3 capture points. If your team gets 2 and camps one ( a 5-0-0 or maybe 4-1-0 setup) the other team might full force engage another point.

    The idea is taken by LoL's dominion if that helps explanationwise.



    I disagree on the choosing part to some degree. The kill points are in no relation to the (very low) capture points. Gaining X points for a capture is imo useless when the enemy team recaptures and gains the same amount, when you didn't get anything of enough worth during that time (the random greens aren't what i'd consider enough - removal of all but points/hp could do the trick).

  • General: Remove Spawn Buffs, as they only benefit those who have nothing else to spend PEN on or Shiny F. The Pen/Exp buffs are used in farming anyway. Make a "No Stats Applied" setting for all modes.


    Siege: Make kills only give 1 point, and make the green tokens give 2. Also, it'd be a bit more interesting if there was a point gain bonus for any team who has all 3 flags. Like if your team has all 3 flags in their control; your team score goes up by 1 per second, and 2 per second in the hyper mode (during the final stretch).


    DM: What Hella said, bring back the pity for being at a big disadvantage score wise. It sucks to join in 2nd half when the enemy team has like 30+ more score than your team does.


    BR: Remove the bonus score for killing the target player. I love this mode to death, but I hate the fact that in the final stretch it's about "who can KS the target". Sure it's meant to pressure the person who's in first, but they get a target on them so shouldn't that be enough of a disadvantage? (instant spawn makes this even more annoying).

  • I personally like captain mode a lot, because of the high HP you got as a captain, which results in longer and more intense fights. The only problem I have with it is, that people often just run away, when they are near to death (or some people just run away entirely, without even fighting once).

    I like arena too, because its a really nice 1v1 mode (sadly it isnt played like at all).

    It would be really cool imo, to add an option to arena, where you can decide, with how many HP you start off(100, 300, 500, ...) and how long the timer for one fight is(1m, 3m, 5m, ...)

    (An alternative would be, to allow people to start captain with 2 people only, for longer 1v1 matches)

  • DM: What Hella said, bring back the pity for being at a big disadvantage score wise. It sucks to join in 2nd half when the enemy team has like 30+ more score than your team does.

    Terrible idea. Just don't join matches that are already running. The players need to adjust themselves, not the game.

  • Removal of Vote kick: would be good for all modes. It's used more often for selfish reasons than what it was put there for. For example; kicking someone because you don't like them; kicking people for no reason; kicking a new or inexperienced player for having (bad score) etc which is just dumb. How can they gain combat experience if they always get kicked? I've even seen games where people don't kick a hacker that joins their team in order to get an massive edge, and only after that they kick them.


    Removal of custom room titles: This would help prevent stupid limitations like CPD no F. Where're people that like all melee supposed to play if all melee players wanna ST-2 CPD no F and nothing else? It'd also stop the limitations in "Unlimited"; which you know; as the name suggests should have "no limits".


    Removal of Chat in lobby: So no RM could say "CPD no F" in the lobby, or any other limitation. This more or less is just an add on to the above idea.


    If players wanna make custom limitations they should make locked rooms in this case, and only invite players they know that're okay with those specific setups.

  • Just don't join matches that are already running.

    What? how do you expect people to play this mode if they won't be joining mid game? Not to mention there will be a always rooms with lacking players because they will be RQing (because no one wants to be in a lost match and also being steamrolled to the end too) and there will be no backfill.


    This is pretty much the reason why every time when you see a DM room it is mostly empty.

  • Removal of custom room titles: This would help prevent stupid limitations like CPD no F. Where're people that like all melee supposed to play if all melee players wanna ST-2 CPD no F and nothing else? It'd also stop the limitations in "Unlimited"; which you know; as the name suggests should have "no limits".

    The thing is, even if they remove those titles. The people would still make rooms like that and just put a password on it, as soon as they got the number of people they want. Its a really nice idea tho. Playing gun isnt really fun for me, because most of the "special" weapons are banned from that mode.

  • Destroy it? You are like 10 points ahead, m8. if you get negative k/d while you are winning idk what to tell you.

    All you have to do is play a bit more carefully. Not to mention damage pity is already in TD.

    At this point i am curious, what kind of numbers are you suggesting Hella?


    Imo a kinda good solution needs to consider both "giving a team the chance to come back" and "not totally killing the game for the minutes of an active pity".

    I'd be open to finding a balance through live testing (i think throughout the last 10 years we definitely would have needed much much more live testing to keep improving. The boots' influence on TD could have easily been prevented for example). Part of my personal trouble in imagining numbers here is that i simply do not care about the team score.

  • At this point i am curious, what kind of numbers are you suggesting Hella?


    Imo a kinda good solution needs to consider both "giving a team the chance to come back" and "not totally killing the game for the minutes of an active pity".

    I'd be open to finding a balance through live testing (i think throughout the last 10 years we definitely would have needed much much more live testing to keep improving. The boots' influence on TD could have easily been prevented for example). Part of my personal trouble in imagining numbers here is that i simply do not care about the team score.

    Just bringing back the old DM pity. Not sure why it was removed on the first place. There probably is still an easy way to enable it in the code. It is probably the same pity that is used in TD or maybe make it like it for the 10 points range.

    The decay of the DM mode started with the removal of the pity.


    About the boots issue, I saw it coming from miles away. it was just as bad of a decision as the changes to the rg.

  • Suggestion [DM]: Team B gains a Team-point (no individual score) for each suicide of a member of team A and vice versa

    Explanation: Prevent abuse on maps that allow suicide ( don't see a need for it in TD as suicides will have disadvantages to be weighted in)

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    Suggestion[global]: Give a kill assist to the one who dealt the most damage (at least 40) to the target (of course do not count in the killer) no matter of how much time has passed, or at least increase the time frame (by a lot tbh)

    Explanation: award people for the work they have done. Don't take it away just because more than say 6 seconds have passed.

    Problem: This might feel strange, the moment a heal comes into play between the potential assist and the kill.

    /* Also I do not know how much the formula would need to be changed from how it is now, but like "most dmg in the last seconds before death" already exists. */

    EDIT-Addition: If 80 or more damage are dealt, instead award the kill.

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    Suggestion[Chaser]: Automatically disable Spark rifle, Homing rifle, Mind shock and Block, add a clarification ban list so people know exactly what weapons and skills are banned

    Explanation: The cha.ser weapon limit has good intentions. Just make it default and unchangeable (the only times i see cha.ser being played on unlimited is when RM abuses MS) and add the other mobile autoaims to the banlist, they don't help the mode at all.


    Just bringing back the old DM pity. Not sure why it was removed on the first place. There probably is still an easy way to enable it in the code. It is probably the same pity that is used in TD or maybe make it like it for the 10 points range.

    The decay of the DM mode started with the removal of the pity.


    About the boots issue, I saw it coming from miles away. it was just as bad of a decision as the changes to the rg.


    You mean 10pt/20pt difference in DM for +3/+4TD pity? (correct me if i am wrong)

    I like the general idea. Does anyone know the exact numbers in damage increase? I feel like the +4TD pity is a bit too strong.. but then i guess 20 pt difference means quite the strength difference. So i suggest my beloved solution: Let's get it tested


    The boots were just an example. Yes we knew that before. What I am suggesting is, that instead of getting weapons like : this is what you get and it won't change for years, it would be nice if we had a chance to test, give feedback, test over again until we get to a somewhat satisfying point with the weapon. I think the system of how weapons are introduced or changed is just way too stale.




    PS: the forum symbols are annoying in threads like this. the +1 and the chaser for example make it so it looks strange or that i have to write in bad ways intentionally..

  • Suggestion [DM]: Team B gains a Team-point (no individual score) for each suicide of a member of team A and vice versa

    Explanation: Prevent abuse on maps that allow suicide ( don't see a need for it in TD as suicides will have disadvantages to be weighted in)

    That's a really good idea! I dont know why they only added a point penalty to your total score, when you suicide...

    Would be more great if you actually get the kill, when your opponent suicides after you hit them at least once.

  • That's a really good idea! I dont know why they only added a point penalty to your total score, when you suicide...

    Would be more great if you actually get the kill, when your opponent suicides after you hit them at least once.

    My second suggestion in that post was meant to take these situations into account. You wouldn't get the kill points but an assist if you dealt at least 40 damage. As it is now you get the kill if you dealt a lot of damage anyway (and this should stay ofc) so this would be scaled for lower damage values.

    I am fine with not giving the kill points if you only deal 40 damage (but the assist instead). The team point is given (through this suggestion) anyway.

  • My second suggestion in that post was meant to take these situations into account. You wouldn't get the kill points but an assist if you dealt at least 40 damage. As it is now you get the kill if you dealt a lot of damage anyway (and this should stay ofc) so this would be scaled for lower damage values.

    I am fine with not giving the kill points if you only deal 40 damage (but the assist instead). The team point is given (through this suggestion) anyway.

    The thing is, that you dont even get any points, even if you dealt a massive amount of damage. They just have to wait a couple of seconds and then they can reset their HP without any consequences. (Didnt talk about, when you push them down and then get the kill)

  • The thing is, that you dont even get any points, even if you dealt a massive amount of damage. They just have to wait a couple of seconds and then they can reset their HP without any consequences. (Didnt talk about, when you push them down and then get the kill)

    I see the point. Have added an edit to the post above: EDIT-Addition: If 80 or more damage are dealt, instead award the kill.

    ^This uses the same unlimited (or extended) time frame.

    Thanks for clarifying


    // I'll think about adding something like "if pushbacks, blow or any Crowdcontrol causes death award assist/kill". I like the idea. Canno players would certainly love it

  • stunlock isnt even good if u play anything other than cpd v1

    Stun can be really powerful against many weapons. Especially against those which use SP for most of their attacks. One stun and most of your SP are gone (if you dont use SP Skill / (Unique) Dual Mastery.

  • Suggestion [global]:

    [1]If player A someone gets pushed, blown or otherwise CC'd by player B so that between the ending point of said CC and the A's death no ground is touched by A (meant in a manner of standing on it), B is awarded the kill.


    [2]If within the time frame of the CC+.5 seconds A dies of lasers, B is awarded the kill


    comments:

    - If multiple CCs were cast, the last one counts (see "problem")

    - assists are calculated as usual


    explanation: trying to make people get the kills where they deserve them


    problem:

    This I don't think is easy to implement. That is not even easy to express in words to get implemented somewhat correctly. Even the way i put it isn't correct, it shall just bring across the general idea.

    For example (and as much as i disapprove of bringing St2): A is walking up the stairs and simply jumping around the laser - B revopushes A to prevent A from entering the upper ground and A falls down into the abyss -> in this scenario B wouldn't be awarded the kill, though you technically deserved it.


    Considering the first comment: Since s4 uses a kill+at max one assist system, i needed to think of something more. Simply giving away a kill here makes multiple CCs a problem. This comment is meant to solve the issue for a revo-revo-setup for example but fails considering blow->push where the blow is lethal anyway.

    Now there could be a CC-ranking for this, but tbh this just gets complicated.



    Summary: I like the idea, but implementing it seems complicated to me. I don't think i am even close here. Still i want to get the idea going, perhaps someone brings up something more efficient, correct and perhaps easier to read.

    //maybe there can be played with the "state of falling" but i can't yet say








    Better balance of weapons, rather than modes. Start with the fix of the stunlock in the game.

    There is a thread for this already ( Feedback needed - Weapons, Basic ). Still that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to improve the game elsewhere.

  • Stun can be really powerful against many weapons. Especially against those which use SP for most of their attacks. One stun and most of your SP are gone (if you dont use SP Skill / (Unique) Dual Mastery.

    thats what team mates are there for.this is not a solo game its a team game