What happened to s4 (Dhoomie video)

  • nintenn The only real gap between AP and PEN is Enchanting really. Everyone has access to FP now if they play their cards right. As players level up they're offered free capsules, not to mention chances to get free capsules every day which you can also stack. Also I Capsules like you mentioned, Conquest and we have Events. Even Fumbi can give FP stats perm sometimes (or temporarily). Also the F skills are bought with PEN and have nothing to do with AP so I won't count that as P2W.


    Enchanting is the only real P2W thing in this game. When you come across someone that has max defense stat and Lv 10 Def piercing legit along with other top tier enchants yeah it's intimidating. We can get "okay" level enchants without uploading AP, but we won't get those god tier enchants without spending AP on reset insurance and lucky jackpots, and enchant delete to get rid of the stuff we don't want.

  • nintenn The only real gap between AP and PEN is Enchanting really. Everyone has access to FP now if they play their cards right. As players level up they're offered free capsules, not to mention chances to get free capsules every day which you can also stack. Also I Capsules like you mentioned, Conquest and we have Events. Even Fumbi can give FP stats perm sometimes (or temporarily). Also the F skills are bought with PEN and have nothing to do with AP so I won't count that as P2W.


    Enchanting is the only real P2W thing in this game. When you come across someone that has max defense stat and Lv 10 Def piercing legit along with other top tier enchants yeah it's intimidating. We can get "okay" level enchants without uploading AP, but we won't get those god tier enchants without spending AP on reset insurance and lucky jackpots, and enchant delete to get rid of the stuff we don't want.

    Yeah, There are I-caps for sets and weapons as well. The problem is just time before you get them.

    And yes, the enchants are the actual issue since the stat exploit requires you to pay for enchant delete and jackpot items.


    They can just remove the enchant delete item from the shop so the stats can no longer be manipulated to certain enchant only.

  • It's weird to me that people complain about the AP vs PEN difference in 2k18. As mentioned countless times FP items/sets are acquired by just playing the game.


    Keep playing and you will get one eventually. Besides, stat differences are the least concern in regards to problems in this game.

  • It's weird to me that people complain about the AP vs PEN difference in 2k18. As mentioned countless times FP items/sets are acquired by just playing the game.


    Keep playing and you will get one eventually. Besides, stat differences are the least concern in regards to problems in this game.

    I get it if it is complain from a new player but most are old dogs anyway who most likely have FP stuff on bunch of accs as well.

    Every time when I see a smurf it pretty much has FPs.

  • It's weird to me that people complain about the AP vs PEN difference in 2k18. As mentioned countless times FP items/sets are acquired by just playing the game.


    Keep playing and you will get one eventually. Besides, stat differences are the least concern in regards to problems in this game.

    I have almost every item and super powerful enchants but I would still prefer that Aeria removes the pay2win! The thing is: most new players wont spend 50 hours of playing so they have actual fun playing the game. Nah they will just never touch S4 League again after 2 hours of getting beaten by players with much more skill and double the damage! If they at least have the same stats from the beginning they might get ambitious and will maybe try getting better!

  • Well iirc you start off at rookie server where everyone is more or less equal in the terms of stats. As you lvl up you get caps and even some 7 day fp items (cs ar etc). By the time you hit lvl 20 and move to free and familiar with the game you can at least be able to frequently play with those temp ap stat sets and 10% atk weaps. May even score a perm fp if your lucky.


    S4 is f2p and everyone knows f2p games are the most p2w cause the company has to earn revenue some how, but I admit. The insane enchants & f skills are a bit to much. The p2w aspect wasnt as stupid a few years ago but everyone knows this game just kept going to sh*t in every aspect as time went on.

  • Well iirc you start off at rookie server where everyone is more or less equal in the terms of stats. As you lvl up you get caps and even some 7 day fp items (cs ar etc). By the time you hit lvl 20 and move to free and familiar with the game you can at least be able to frequently play with those temp ap stat sets and 10% atk weaps. May even score a perm fp if your lucky.


    S4 is f2p and everyone knows f2p games are the most p2w cause the company has to earn revenue some how, but I admit. The insane enchants & f skills are a bit to much. The p2w aspect wasnt as stupid a few years ago but everyone knows this game just kept going to sh*t in every aspect as time went on.

    Yeah and nowhere ingame is explained what these stats are doing...

    Yeah and when the 7 day fp items where people actually were able to make some kills are gone they won't do so well without them...

    Familiar with the game? Yeah so familiar that they get kicked out of every 2nd room they join...

    IF you are lucky...


    Making a pvp game into a p2w game is the dumbest move you can make. Fortnite (as example) is as I know the biggest f2p pvp game without p2w aspects at all. Seems to work perfect and I'm sure they have more than enough revenue with skin and emote releases. And other games as well and the reason is simple. People want to battle each other with equal chances where skill matters more.


  • True. But the FACT still remains most f2p games are p2w. Any person that sampled multiple f2p games knows this. Its a formula in the works for ages.


    I am not defending it but its just the way it is. I personality don't think the "p2w aspect" of s4 will ever change at this point. Most of us oldies played vs it when we were new and persevered (even though there werent f skills and such back in the day). It's unfair and unbalanced but I think s4 has bigger problems to rectify 1st.

  • True. But the FACT still remains most f2p games are p2w. Any person that sampled multiple f2p games knows this. Its a formula in the works for ages.


    I am not defending it but its just the way it is. I personality don't think the "p2w aspect" of s4 will ever change at this point. Most of us oldies played vs it when we were new and persevered (even though there werent f skills and such back in the day). It's unfair and unbalanced but I think s4 has bigger problems to rectify 1st.

    Modern f2p pvp games are actually getting rid of p2w. You won't find any successful ones that are p2w.

    S4 is a victim of its time. However, nothing is set on stone. With some more modern management mentality it can become appealing even for new players again... that is if the vk finally gets removed and the focus is moved more to unlimited mode, quick play queue and so on.


    The game currently is super newbie unfriendly from the community side and game design.

  • Modern f2p pvp games are actually getting rid of p2w. You won't find any successful ones that are p2w.

    S4 is a victim of its time. However, nothing is set on stone. With some more modern management mentality it can become appealing even for new players again... that is if the vk finally gets removed and the focus is moved more to unlimited mode, quick play queue and so on.


    The game currently is super newbie unfriendly from the community side and game design.

    just wanted to point that out again @peopleinchargeofS4

  • Fortnite (as example) is as I know the biggest f2p pvp game without p2w aspects at all. Seems to work perfect and I'm sure they have more than enough revenue with skin and emote releases.

    That's not a valid comparison for several reasons.

    1: You need a big player base to survive exclusively on skins. Epic Games as a brand attracts more people than Aeria (they're known for the Gears of war series and Unreal Tournament), and they have spent money on advertising as well.

    2: Fortnite Battle Royale exists alongside Fortnite PvE, thus even if it had not been profitable (which it ended up being), it's still good publicity, so it wasn't meant to be just about skins from the start.

    3: There is (or was when it released) a pretty big demand for battle royale games, which is part of why it was able to gather as many people as it did. On the other hand, there isn't much demand for fast paced third person shooters with a steep learning curve.

    4: Skins probably sell better in games that don't have outdated textures.


    I doubt S4's player base is big enough to support an economy based entirely on skins. It would need a pretty big push to be able to have that kind of player base, and just switching to a more marketable business model isn't going to cut it, there also needs to be actual marketing as well, and even then there is no guarantee that it's not going to end up as a financial disaster (there are many reasons why S4 might be hard to sell to the general audience).

  • That's the whole problem. This game is dying because it can't hold the playerbase BECAUSE newcomers despise the P2W model and cheaters/hackers, and so it turns boring and monotonous because there are not enough players, and that's because online games are designed to offer "replayability" which is provided by the interaction with other players, just like split-screen games did in the past. Absolutely NOBODY is gonna buy AP to play the same kind of boring match (Sword ST2-TD and Chaser-Circle) vs the same 10 fellas in the server, so keeping a freemium scheme will only destroy the community just like it has been doing since AP stats were introduced.

    Bear in mind that S4 already closed in Korea and the company dropped it, so this game needs a bigger playerbase at any cost, otherwise it won't be long before it closes for the last time.

    And btw, isn't the EU planning to ban lootboxes? what will happen to the capsules?

  • It was just an example not a comparison. I know this doesn't work in the current situation for S4 League. And everything you wrote is true but people already posted one or more times what they think could work for a better game and nowhere is written that they gonna make this and that changes. It is like after some months they still have no clue in which direction this game should go. There isn't even advertisement at all for S4 league while Aura Kingdom got it not too long ago. It is not like Aeria+gamigo only have this one game and advertisement on Facebook doesn't cost that much as I know from friends (could be wrong bcause I never looked into it). And every little step to the final goal is the right way. But what exactly is the goal they wanna reach? They probably think about it :/

  • That's the whole problem. This game is dying because it can't hold the playerbase BECAUSE newcomers despise the P2W model and cheaters/hackers, and so it turns boring and monotonous because there are not enough players, and that's because online games are designed to offer "replayability" which is provided by the interaction with other players, just like split-screen games did in the past. Absolutely NOBODY is gonna buy AP to play the same kind of boring match (Sword ST2-TD and Chaser-Circle) vs the same 10 fellas in the server, so keeping a freemium scheme will only destroy the community just like it has been doing since AP stats were introduced.

    There are probably other factors involved, not just the pay2win model and hackers. For instance, S4 league was at its peak of growth when it had the most pay2win model (back when it was literally pen/fumbi shop against prems, the dark lightning and following season).


    Also, you seem to think that the only two options are an exclusively skin based economy and pay2win. But that's just not true. Something else that you can make players pay for that doesn't give them an advantage strictly speaking is... options. An example of that can be found in League of Legends, where you can buy characters with money. Those characters are not necessarily better than those you already have (if they're balanced correctly), but spending money still changes the experience of the player in a meaningful way.


    To be honest I'll never understand people who buy skins, so I might be a little bit biased on the issue, but games that can survive exclusively on skin income seem more like the exception than the rule.

  • For instance, S4 league was at its peak of growth when it had the most pay2win model (back when it was literally pen/fumbi shop against prems, the dark lightning and following season).

    The game was also getting a lot more content as well.

    The 1st season was really a big thing since there was nothing like it. We got new weapons, maps, chasers, and more weapons skins and costumes like never before.

  • There are probably other factors involved, not just the pay2win model and hackers. For instance, S4 league was at its peak of growth when it had the most pay2win model (back when it was literally pen/fumbi shop against prems, the dark lightning and following season).

    I think the enchantment system is what destroyed the game because that pushed the P2W to the very limit. I was a PEN user and I think AP vs PEN wasn't as unfair around 2009-2011, I had a few permanent items with decent stats from the Random shop and good chips, so the time spent in-game kinda paid off at that time. But then the buff system came, and then the enchantment system, and quickly the scale heavily turned against the PEN players, and for new players it was even worse.

    To be honest I'll never understand people who buy skins, so I might be a little bit biased on the issue, but games that can survive exclusively on skin income seem more like the exception than the rule.

    Oh boy I've spent around $500 on skins and icons on League of Legends. Why? I don't really know, maybe I'm just stupid, or maybe I just don't have anything else to do with my money and I really like the customized VO and graphics for Legendary Skins, and I've given around $200 worth of skins as gifts to my friends in just the last month (to be fair that's a lot of money considering that I live in a 3rd world hole), and they usually send me random boxes or another skin of the same grade in return, so that explains why Riot is making over $1.2b per year since 2015. I personally don't have a direct problem with the P2W in S4 because I think I can afford a few FP sets and weapons, but the question is, why would I buy anything in a game that has no players to play against? (I already did that mistake by spending money in the LatAm S4 server, the game was turned into a chatroom and closed few months ago).


    S4 could offer other customization options like voice lines, emotes or just weapon/clothing skins without stats to give unfair advantage.

    PS: the attachments are to prove my point, but also for flexing my 80 skins, 147 icons and gift history for the last month. I think monetization by selling cosmetics may be viable.


  • The game was also getting a lot more content as well.

    The 1st season was really a big thing since there was nothing like it. We got new weapons, maps, chasers, and more weapons skins and costumes like never before.

    I might be misinterpreting your message, but you frame it like I was using my example to demonstrate how pay2win doesn't matter. That there are other factors to consider is my point, it's exactly what I say in the one sentence you cut from the paragraph you quoted.

    I think the enchantment system is what destroyed the game because that pushed the P2W to the very limit. I was a PEN user and I think AP vs PEN wasn't as unfair around 2009-2011, I had a few permanent items with decent stats from the Random shop and good chips, so the time spent in-game kinda paid off at that time. But then the buff system came, and then the enchantment system, and quickly the scale heavily turned against the PEN players, and for new players it was even worse.

    The enchant system is rubbish (the chips as well), but having spent only 2 euros into the game I've got a way better matchup against money spending maniacs now than I had during Dark Lightning. But of course, that's because I sank a lot of time into the game. The people who really suffer from it are new players, but "pay2win" isn't an accurate way of describing the problem. If, for example, all of the items and enchants that were acquired using money were to disappear, it wouldn't change the fact that new players get boned by people who have all FP, all lv5 chips and okay enchants such as myself.


    Oh boy I've spent around $500 on skins and icons on League of Legends. Why? I don't really know, maybe I'm just stupid, or maybe I just don't have anything else to do with my money and I really like the customized VO and graphics for Legendary Skins, and I've given around $200 worth of skins as gifts to my friends in just the last month (to be fair that's a lot of money considering that I live in a 3rd world hole), and they usually send me random boxes or another skin of the same grade in return, so that explains why Riot is making over $1.2b per year since 2015. I personally don't have a direct problem with the P2W in S4 because I think I can afford a few FP sets and weapons, but the question is, why would I buy anything in a game that has no players to play against? (I already did that mistake by spending money in the LatAm S4 server, the game was turned into a chatroom and closed few months ago).

    I mean, skins are profitable, never said they weren't. I know that not everybody thinks like me (good for them, and for consumerism). But are they really enough in the case of s4? I'm not defending the current business model of S4, just saying that you probably also want to milk income from people who want their money to have an impact on how the game plays for them. I've given an example of how League of Legends does it, and without turning their game into a pay2win or alienating their newer players.

  • Imo the best thing is if they just remove all sats from weapon and clothes, make a "balance mode" which has the current s5/pen stats and a "fun" mode which has the current ap stats without enchants. So when you dont want to pay you can play these modes naked or with certain free skins you can get during level up/events but you will always have the same stats anyways. Then Aeria could even leave the enchant system there but only make it for the "fun" mode. So the only way to have better stats will be with enchants in that mode. That still leaves the pay2win a bit but makes it less of a problem, still reason enough for the more advanced tryharding sword players to pay for it.

    Furthermore Aeria doesnt only need to sell skins, they could actually sell emotes, some sort of ingame emojis and maybe even Clan Marks.

  • I might be misinterpreting your message, but you frame it like I was using my example to demonstrate how pay2win doesn't matter. That there are other factors to consider is my point, it's exactly what I say in the one sentence you cut from the paragraph you quoted.

    I was just giving an example of why it was successful in that time period. There was p2w, the people didn't like it but there were more things to be excited about in general.


    Nowadays the things are much different. The new games are no longer mostly p2w, the new content like maps etc is lacking from s4, seasons are no longer as exciting as they were the first time around, the graphics are no longer as good for a f2p game.


    The competition just has raised the bar too high for the game to stay as it is.

  • That guy made another video. I'm rather disappointed at that though. Instead of actually arguing he turned it into a meme video (or at least tried to do so) and the suggestions he had at the end are nothing new either.

  • That guy made another video. I'm rather disappointed at that though. Instead of actually arguing he turned it into a meme video (or at least tried to do so) and the suggestions he had at the end are nothing new either.

    well, its nothing new, but its easy and wanted... don't you think?
    though sorry i let you down, hopefully in the future i can make something better.

  • well, its nothing new, but its easy and wanted... don't you think?

    Ofc it is. But stating the same suggestion over and over again won't help much, I guess. (It helped with burning Carthage though...)

    Aeria is aware of the issues. They know our suggestion and ideas. Now it's on them to implement them. At this point we made ourselves heard enough and Kara confirmed he heard us. I think we can only wait now.

  • Imo the best thing is if they just remove all sats from weapon and clothes, make a "balance mode" which has the current s5/pen stats and a "fun" mode which has the current ap stats without enchants. So when you dont want to pay you can play these modes naked or with certain free skins you can get during level up/events but you will always have the same stats anyways. Then Aeria could even leave the enchant system there but only make it for the "fun" mode. So the only way to have better stats will be with enchants in that mode. That still leaves the pay2win a bit but makes it less of a problem, still reason enough for the more advanced tryharding sword players to pay for it.

    Furthermore Aeria doesnt only need to sell skins, they could actually sell emotes, some sort of ingame emojis and maybe even Clan Marks.

    Just making a "balanced" mode would be simpler, though. The stats could stay (no one wants their stuff taken just like that) and just be disabled in the "balanced" mode. (Essentially the room option I've been talking about.)

  • I think the enchantment system is what destroyed the game because that pushed the P2W to the very limit. I was a PEN user and I think AP vs PEN wasn't as unfair around 2009-2011, I had a few permanent items with decent stats from the Random shop and good chips, so the time spent in-game kinda paid off at that time. But then the buff system came, and then the enchantment system, and quickly the scale heavily turned against the PEN players, and for new players it was even worse.

    Oh boy I've spent around $500 on skins and icons on League of Legends. Why? I don't really know, maybe I'm just stupid, or maybe I just don't have anything else to do with my money and I really like the customized VO and graphics for Legendary Skins, and I've given around $200 worth of skins as gifts to my friends in just the last month (to be fair that's a lot of money considering that I live in a 3rd world hole), and they usually send me random boxes or another skin of the same grade in return, so that explains why Riot is making over $1.2b per year since 2015. I personally don't have a direct problem with the P2W in S4 because I think I can afford a few FP sets and weapons, but the question is, why would I buy anything in a game that has no players to play against? (I already did that mistake by spending money in the LatAm S4 server, the game was turned into a chatroom and closed few months ago).


    S4 could offer other customization options like voice lines, emotes or just weapon/clothing skins without stats to give unfair advantage.

    PS: the attachments are to prove my point, but also for flexing my 80 skins, 147 icons and gift history for the last month. I think monetization by selling cosmetics may be viable.


    ha i have 88 skins i win... (in nothing)



    edit: I agree enhancements are way more scarier than ap vs pen. they should just cap enhancements to +3 lol

  • Removing prem stats or whatever is causing a "p2w" nowdays would actually break the game and not just on a community perspective


    Tell those who had spent 700€ on getting some move speed +3 and some TD atk +5 or whatever that those stats will be removed


    neither the enchants or chips should had ever been introduced to the game, jez.

  • Removing prem stats or whatever is causing a "p2w" nowdays would actually break the game and not just on a community perspective


    Tell those who had spent 700€ on getting some move speed +3 and some TD atk +5 or whatever that those stats will be removed


    neither the enchants or chips should had ever been introduced to the game, jez.

    So if you tell those people that the game is going offline they are going to do what? :D Want their money back? :/

  • So if you tell those people that the game is going offline they are going to do what? :D Want their money back? :/

    Like removing ""p2w"" at this point could save the game for what's coming for it in 2019


    It's simply already too late to adress anything from this game, if they aren't making any profit from this "project" i doubt that the suit up staff in Aeria are willing to donate for a half dead horse with such a bad reputation behind its back that not even ads could bring new players in


    And that is sad, at least the game wont be alone in the games with potential ruined room

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Shanic ().

  • Like removing ""p2w"" at this point could save the game for what's coming for it in 2019


    It's simply already too late to adress anything from this game, if they aren't making any profit from this "project" i doubt that the suit up staff in Aeria are willing to donate for a half dead horse with such a bad reputation behind its back that not even ads could bring new players in


    And that is sad, at least the game wont be alone in the games with potential ruined room

    Yeah they should introduce items with double the fp stats to milk out as much money as they can from the current player base before it goes down :D

  • Yeah they should introduce items with double the fp stats to milk out as much money as they can from the current player base before it goes down :D

    Feels like that's the best they could do from their perspective.


    Tho recently we got a patch to make things easier, i don't know how that will play out and neither if that will happen sooner or later or when it's already too late

    And seeing how the game has been lately, i think i can say that it's getting a little too late


    And by the way, where's Karasakal?

  • Looking at the 10th anniversary events yeah xD


    Too much wrong, too less right. Ignoring all the problems over the years. Well what should I write here xD


    I think he has vacation or had last week. Idk.

  • Just making a "balanced" mode would be simpler, though. The stats could stay (no one wants their stuff taken just like that) and just be disabled in the "balanced" mode. (Essentially the room option I've been talking about.)

    The weird thing is, that such a mode actually exists already, but only in passmode and arena tho. (Disable Item Stats)

    I dont know why it's not added to the other game modes tho. :shrug:

    sol2the blue rookie joines the game~


  • It's been literal years and 3 + different '' companies '' i think you guys are beating the dead horse's rib cage withouth any flesh left on it at this point with all these suggestions

  • would be easier to make a new game based off this one


    this game probably generated enough income back then for that but i see it wasted on some nuclear orange GUI

    The issue probably will be making it just as good as the old one.

    I really like to keep giving GunZ2 as an example. The devs pretty much closed the original GunZ in trying to push the new one and the new game died few months after while failing to impress old and new players.