What happened to s4 (Dhoomie video)


  • Not sure if i should post this or not since its not my content, but i thought i would be a good idea to share this so others can see it. dhoomie on his youtube channel made a video describing pretty much what he likes and dislikes about the game. check it out if you haven't.Foxtailgirl


    I personally agree with pretty much everything, except i believe a few of the newer melee have a right to exist if they tweak them to make them more punishing. but i wouldn't be mad if they disappeared tho.

  • The vid was enjoyable then that finger pointing part.


    Dhommie:"How you mess it up Aeria Ignite!??"

    Aeria games:"It's not our fault"

    Dhommie:"No! It's your fault! You guys brought broken TB, Breaker, enchant, homing gun, RL. Fist,Esper chip, buff Railgun. Etc."

    Aeria games:"It's still not our fault, and btw it's Aeria games not Ignite"

    Dhommie:"It's your fault! Fix our game! Aeria Ignite!"

    Karasakal:"In Aeria Games defense. It just 3-4 months before we took over ownership of the game. It's take time understanding the code, but once we figure it out. We might put out some patches every 3 month, once we get more custom to it. We might get patch every month instead 3. Till then I hope you be more understanding and patience. If you need question. You can go watch our Q&A vid if you haven't and please talk to us either forum or on discord. But please not on YouTube. We don't have time to check S4 content made by our players."

    Dhommie" We don't have patience! We need you to fix our game! It's on you!"


    I get some of him points. But his finger pointing. Make me think he has some lack of understanding. If he had seen the Kara Q&A vid. Would he be understanding? It been said over and over again. Yet some people just don't understand. All I see at the end is bashing and blaming at the wrong people and things. That's is unfair.


    He just a S4 regular who hardly check the forum regularly. Who still has missing out on news and information. How he mention Karasakal clearly he didn't know him well and didn't know the things he done. Q&A, feed back thread, etc. He never mention any of them. Karasakal was trying, not just on AP store. How he try to bash on him negatively. That clearly tells me this person has lack of understanding. Who bluntly made a vid with less understanding what really happening around S4.


    He made a good vid, but at the end he lost all credibility.

  • Well, nothing really new in that video. His only demand is that they "fix the game". Well, duh. That's what they've been working on these past months. It takes way longer than we'd all like but saying that they only care about the AP shop isn't really fair either. If that's all they'd care about, they'd only put out new items/skins and sell them. I think Kara's "Make S4 League Great Again" hat was directed at himself and the staff, not the community.

  • Well, nothing really new in that video. His only demand is that they "fix the game". Well, duh. That's what they've been working on these past months. It takes way longer than we'd all like but saying that they only care about the AP shop isn't really fair either. If that's all they'd care about, they'd only put out new items/skins and sell them. I think Kara's "Make S4 League Great Again" hat was directed at himself and the staff, not the community.

  • There is some misunderstandings indeed (my favorite is about the site being hacked even though it was confirmed in the past that those are just placeholders) but that is pretty much how most ppl of the outside sees it which is not good.

  • Hey,

    Here to drop a couple cents and address some points as a few people also asked me on Discord today.


    First, I watched the video yesterday and really liked hearing the maker's perspective. I thought he wasn't aware of a lot of things, but that's more than understandable, especially considering we haven't delivered any results yet.


    Before I go on, let me say that there will be a PM Letter coming this month, talking about various subjects.


    Now, a few points.

    1) The words on the hat are not my words, it was a joke in the community and I thought it'd be cool to follow suit. Not that we don't want to make S4 League great again, but just to let people know it wasn't me just putting on a hat looking cool. It's an inside joke of the community!


    2) I don't think we are SO p2win. Obviously it can help you and if you are facing a person of similar skill, you will have the upper hand if you have better equipment but in the end skill matters. It's not my words by the way, this is the result from our community survey when we asked "What do you think about item power vs skill?"


    As you can see, the smallest fraction is item>skill directly. Not to dismiss the importance of items and that you can buy things, but for this we've also been changing things.

    Recently we made a lot of things more accessible and as development actually kicks in, we will have more opportunities to address the issue. It could be allowing no-stats in more places, it could be making enchants more accessible, it could be something else entirely... We don't know yet.


    3) Already stated but the website wasn't hacked at all. They were just humorous placeholders. It just shows our tech people's humor really!


    4) He is right that we are responsible of the game. Not in the sense that the current team made all the changes, but as I always say, I never mean to give you excuses or putting the blame on something else to absolve ourselves from responsibility.

    At any time, we are responsible of providing you a good service and currently, we are far from it.


    However, I can promise you we are working hard. I will tell more in the PM Letter. We have something coming soon.


    Anyway, it was really nice to watch the video and I think the maker has a lot of valid points. I hope we'll make changes soon enough that returning eSpers and existing people alike will feel the differences.


    I already wrote a lot but I'm keeping the rest for the PM letter.

  • I completely agree with everything said in the video. I personally think aeria got tired of publishing this game so they told devs to break everything so people will quit and they finally have a reason to close this version.

    Then why aeria got the game from the devs after the korean version got shut down?

    They cold easily just close our servers as well and not bother with the game at all.

  • Then why aeria got the game from the devs after the korean version got shut down?

    They cold easily just close our servers as well and not bother with the game at all.

    To milk pockets. When I see results & changes then we can start talking.


    Me saying they asked the devs to break this game is not to be taken serious by the way. But it just feels this way. They messed it up so bad you would assume its a valid reason.

  • How to save the game? Since you cannot just remove entities from the game that were purchasable by users for years, open up a new version of the game, but keep the old version running. In this new version, you should exchange the forcepack system with a skin system (remove any item status effects from the game, also enchanting) and maybe even start off with only a few weapons. Test & Balance them together with the community. Then put the next weapons into the game and repeat.

  • How to save the game? Since you cannot just remove entities from the game that were purchasable by users for years, open up a new version of the game, but keep the old version running. In this new version, you should exchange the forcepack system with a skin system (remove any item status effects from the game, also enchanting) and maybe even start off with only a few weapons. Test & Balance them together with the community. Then put the next weapons into the game and repeat.

    Don't forget to keep swords only and guns only outta it

  • How to save the game? Since you cannot just remove entities from the game that were purchasable by users for years, open up a new version of the game, but keep the old version running. In this new version, you should exchange the forcepack system with a skin system (remove any item status effects from the game, also enchanting) and maybe even start off with only a few weapons. Test & Balance them together with the community. Then put the next weapons into the game and repeat.

    Making another version just for that is just splitting the community even more. Not to mention no one will want to play the p2w version other than the ppl with top enchants.


    Implementing stat disable option for rooms seems way more reasonable.

  • Making another version just for that is just splitting the community even more. Not to mention no one will want to play the p2w version other than the ppl with top enchants.


    Implementing stat disable option for rooms seems way more reasonable.

    And what exactly is the problem with that? From the perspective of aeriagames, the new, successful version (And believe me; the game has the potential to get successful again) will be way more profitable than the current one. They have to decide about more (future) profit or some players that want to keep the value of their current account. What would a smart business do?

  • And what exactly is the problem with that? From the perspective of aeriagames, the new, successful version (And believe me; the game has the potential to get successful again) will be way more profitable than the current one. They have to decide about more (future) profit or some players that want to keep the value of their current account. What would a smart business do?

    Sure but that is pretty much robbing everyone who payed for stat in the past since not many will stay in that version. Not to mention the extra cost of maintaining 2 versions one of which dead.

    It just won't happens.

  • Sure but that is pretty much robbing everyone who payed for stat in the past since not many will stay in that version. Not to mention the extra cost of maintaining 2 versions one of which dead.

    It just won't happens.

    Every game has to end and the current S4 league version lasted pretty long. I wouldn't call closing online games "robbing", since players know that the game could end at any time. Also, there are plently of ways to compensate players who paid recently into the game.

  • To milk pockets. When I see results & changes then we can start talking.


    Me saying they asked the devs to break this game is not to be taken serious by the way. But it just feels this way. They messed it up so bad you would assume its a valid reason.

    Well then leave if you only want changes but not being part from them just blaming.

  • opening another s4 ? are you guys serious at all ? whats the point of opening the same game but called another game ?


    1- opening a new game = needs money for server and publishing and some other stuff
    2- making it skin system based = what about the skins ppl paid money to get or skins that ppl had to login everyday to complete an event to get
    3- making a new game with no stats is just like saying "oh guys we have a private server that makes the game not really p2w "

  • I just wanted to come here and put my unrequested opinion: is the freemium model of this game good?

    TL;DR: It isn't. The game is in this state because, what's a multiplayer game without a community? This game is awesome and has a ton of potential to offer because it's fast-paced, plus the current popular games have proven that they can be successful just by selling cosmetics, which are already in this game and are just what people expect to find in a anime-styled game. And having "no-stats" isn't either the solution.

    Continue reading at your own risk: I've played this game since around 2010 and had nothing to do so I went over-explanatory with my thoughts.

    ... 2) I don't think we are SO p2win. Obviously it can help you and if you are facing a person of similar skill, you will have the upper hand if you have better equipment but in the end skill matters. It's not my words by the way, this is the result from our community survey when we asked "What do you think about item power vs skill?"

    From my point of view I think this scheme only "looks good" for the company, because what it does is to encourage potential customers to put money in the game only so they get the advantage that other premium players already have, but apart from that, does ANYONE here actually thinks it should stay this way? it destroys the game because it destroys the community, and everyone knows that the community makes 100% of any online game because these are meant to be Multiplayer. it's not even pay-to-win at this point, being a free/PEN player is like you're being offered a crippled demo as taste of the gameplay and you have to buy the game to have the full experience. I remember I had friends back in 2012 who spent over 2k euros just to have different sets and a different look, so this dumb freemium scheme is just forcing free players to feel like "you either buy our premium items OR you can equip that +30HP we gave you for free, our premium players need punching bags". It frustrates the player and that's the reason at some point players used hacks just to have premium stats.


    So, we're in a time where games like Overwatch, Fortnite, DotA, League of Legends and basically any other competitive game has definitely dropped the pay-to-win scheme and they have been the most successful games in history just because they appeal to have a wider audience which eventually leads to having a wider range of potential customers.

    I'm quoting Shigeru Miyamoto because the legend himself said it the last month: "We're lucky to have such a giant market, so our thinking is, if we can deliver games at reasonable prices to as many people as possible, we will see big profits."

    Btw, I would like to have the source to the survey mentioned above because it MAYBE could've been misunderstood by players who thought the team was referring to weapon-type balance instead of average stats vs premium stats. I just want to check it.


    Karasakal wrote:

    ... Recently we made a lot of things more accessible and as development actually kicks in, we will have more opportunities to address the issue. It could be allowing no-stats in more places...


    It's more of a personal view, but I think some players could agree that the premium stats are fine, the problem is when you go premium vs PEN. The unbalance is annoying, and the premium stats like increased speed and having more SP are what makes the game great because it allows the players to have more options in their playstyle, like allowing to chain more walljumps or increased dashes to counter the stuns and pushback from most weapons. If you actually make "no-stats" a thing it will just become boring, limiting the player playstyle is what ruined games like PUBG, League of Legends or Super Smash Bros. Brawl because players feel like their abilities are being crippled by the game, like it's the linear design of the game making the choices for them and that lack of sense of control (just like the free vs premium) is what pushes the player to a feeling of frustration, because they feel that something out of their control is the only reason they lost.

    That being said, I conclude that what makes S4 awesome is the fast-paced action it packs in every match, every minute, every half-time, every round between touchdowns, every single second dozens of bullets and attacks pass around the player, forcing him to make quick choices and when done correctly, it grants one of the highest satisfaction feelings I've felt playing any game.


    And about the cosmetic sets... the customization/cosmetic options this game has are WONDERFUL, the clothes are stylish and just what you expect from an anime-styled game, even my sister (she is a die-hard MMORPG player) played and liked the game at some point because the clothing looked really cool, but she also hated it because she only had one premium set and she doesn't like to lose so she was forced to "use the same boring outfit" every match.

    And last, going back to the topic of current popular games, how many million dollars is Fortnite making for selling a battle-pass which only unlocks cosmetics? League of Legends made an estimate of 1.6 billion dollars in 2015 just by selling skins, name changes and a few customization options like rune pages, which in this game could translate into more character slots, pushing players to buy cosmetics so they have their characters looking good and ready for every situation.

    And last, remember: the players are the one who knows what's best for themselves.

    If you made it to this point, I certainly appreciate your interest. I hope I could make this reading at least a bit enjoyable, I feel like I had to let out my thoughts as someone who has played this game since around 2009-2010, and I played in the EU server as a free/PEN player yet I got to spend around $700 USD in the LatAm server just to have different clothing: these look good. I'm sorry if there are any grammar mistakes, I'm just a Colombian waiting for the IP ban to be lifted.

  • nothing new in this video once again video about over glorified TD station 2

    yap about how everything is overpowered how nothing cant be countered (which is a lie)

    and stats ? im pretty sure most people dont care about them anymore.

  • Nowadays everyone has at least full FP set and weapons but those are mostly old players (probably even those who still plays s5 for some reason).

    The ap vs pen problem mostly affect new players. You can pretty much guess a new player by seeing them not wearing anything.


    Ppl seems to stay away from p2w games in general especially when there are better alternatives and s4 is not a new game either.

  • Nowadays everyone has at least full FP set and weapons but those are mostly old players (probably even those who still plays s5 for some reason).

    The ap vs pen problem mostly affect new players. You can pretty much guess a new player by seeing them not wearing anything.


    Ppl seems to stay away from p2w games in general especially when there are better alternatives and s4 is not a new game either.

    tbh you can get full set with 3 weapons by making a new account and doing events. leveling up to level 20 alone gives around 250 k

    to 300 k and if you spend it right you can get a shiny set and keep saving pen to get the pen caps of weapons you want. and lets not mention that by spending 1 dollar you get a weapon and a pet fp perm. the only thing you cant get with pen is the pet since there is no pen caps of pet. other than that everything you need to win is easy to get with pen.also the difference between ap and fp is the 20% exp bouns othr than that it doesnt make difference

  • tbh you can get full set with 3 weapons by making a new account and doing events. leveling up to level 20 alone gives around 250 k

    to 300 k and if you spend it right you can get a shiny set and keep saving pen to get the pen caps of weapons you want. and lets not mention that by spending 1 dollar you get a weapon and a pet fp perm. the only thing you cant get with pen is the pet since there is no pen caps of pet. other than that everything you need to win is easy to get with pen.also the difference between ap and fp is the 20% exp bouns othr than that it doesnt make difference

    Yeah mostly everything luck based...


    Yeah no. Maybe you should recheck stats. AP Weapon = +10% atk. FP Weapon = 11% atk, HP+5, SP+5, Speed +3%. Look you are so long in this game and even you don't remember such a simple thing. But new players without any knowledge and help should figure out the best way to get strong items xD

    Nowadays everyone has at least full FP set and weapons but those are mostly old players (probably even those who still plays s5 for some reason).

    The ap vs pen problem mostly affect new players. You can pretty much guess a new player by seeing them not wearing anything.


    Ppl seems to stay away from p2w games in general especially when there are better alternatives and s4 is not a new game either.

    Nah the ap vs pen problem is everywhere. But you can test it yourself. Play with full pen gear in a normal room. You probably have to change your gamestyle and usual way of thinking.

  • tbh you can get full set with 3 weapons by making a new account and doing events. leveling up to level 20 alone gives around 250 k

    to 300 k and if you spend it right you can get a shiny set and keep saving pen to get the pen caps of weapons you want. and lets not mention that by spending 1 dollar you get a weapon and a pet fp perm. the only thing you cant get with pen is the pet since there is no pen caps of pet. other than that everything you need to win is easy to get with pen.also the difference between ap and fp is the 20% exp bouns othr than that it doesnt make difference

    If you have already played the game, you know what to do to maximize profit. The thing is, the newbies don't so for them it looks like a p2w game.

  • Yeah mostly everything luck based...


    Yeah no. Maybe you should recheck stats. AP Weapon = +10% atk. FP Weapon = 11% atk, HP+5, SP+5, Speed +3%. Look you are so long in this game and even you don't remember such a simple thing. But new players without any knowledge and help should figure out the best way to get strong items xD

    Nah the ap vs pen problem is everywhere. But you can test it yourself. Play with full pen gear in a normal room. You probably have to change your gamestyle and usual way of thinking.

    i was talking about the set stats not the weapon and am with you that playing pen vs fp is hard but it aint impossible specially that I saw you playing with pen gear and you were still reking me and my team back in the days

  • i was talking about the set stats not the weapon and am with you that playing pen vs fp is hard but it aint impossible specially that I saw you playing with pen gear and you were still reking me and my team back in the days

    I know but you wrote in general fp/ap stats. Don't take it too seriously :D


    Sure it is not impossible but takes a huge effort in playtime to pull that off especially nowadays. Also I think in the sword only mode it is impossible to play somewhat good with full pen gear.

  • i was talking about the set stats not the weapon and am with you that playing pen vs fp is hard but it aint impossible specially that I saw you playing with pen gear and you were still reking me and my team back in the days

    But the new players probably won't have the skill to outplay those who already have AP stats and most likely they also won't dedicate hours of their lifetime (like we older players did) to learn stratagies and game mechanics that help them to beat players using AP stats.

  • Well then leave if you only want changes but not being part from them just blaming.

    What? Who doesn't want change? What blaming are you talking about? I can't tell if your trying to defend the state of the game or just felt like replying for no reason.


    As for leaving i play this game seldomly noe like everyone else i know. I will leave on my own time & until then I can critique what I think of the game which sadly at this point. Is a lot of broken ish.

  • 1. Alaplaya was never a developer. They were the original host for the EU/NA version.
    2. P7S1 Bought pentavision. At no point did they collaborate on the game outside of that initial purchase.

    3. "S4 league joined Aeria games" No. P7S1 bought Aeria.

    4. A great deal of those weapons you are complaining about are from dark lightning (1st season)/ iron eyes (2nd season). Treasure hunter was all the way out in 6th season.

    5. S4DB is not an official source. It uses 3rd party hacks to gain it's information and the information it gathers can actually be wrong, I realize that may shock you, but it is true.

    6. "All room owners limit the spammy weapons" Yeah, cause no one ever complains about SD spam, or CS spam. It is totally about balance, not simply not being able to deal with things and banning them. Yeah, totally not... It isn't as if when a weapon is first introduced, it is banned by all those rooms.

    Heck, I'd bet they could literally nerf the rail gun so hard that it becomes useless and people would still ban it from their rooms cause that is the type of community we have.

    7. "Developers are more focused on AP shop than development" Yes, cause coding something and making skins are the exact same process and can be easily done by the exact same people.

    8. "Did I mention the stats" Yes, what you didn't mention however is the fact you can get those without buying a single AP. I-Caps and P-Caps do exist, as do events, heck, closing the gap can be done with Fumbi as well. Not to mention item crafting that goes great with fumbi to get peices. Just because SOME people don't use them doesn't mean they stop existing. For instance:
    5LyLtBV.jpg

    Lot of free stuff if you ask me. Also, those enchant numbers, not a single dime went into pushing them.

    9. Toolers, OK, tell them how to fix that.

    10. Hackers: Everything has them. Not just games, but absolutely everything. Yelling fix them doesn't do anything.


    And, since we are on it. I noticed more than 1 account on your video. Multiple account creation doesn't help new players, nor does it encourage them to stick around and get stomped on endlessly. Player numbers would probably improve if it weren't for that.


    ---

    plus the current popular games have proven that they can be successful just by selling cosmetics

    Because they started with that -_-.

    It is a little different to spite your current active and playing player base in the hopes of getting a better player base. As a matter of fact, is there an example of that working ever? You need to remember, the game has been open for over 10 years. Changing the system now isn't as simple as you seem to think.

    So, we're in a time where games like Overwatch, Fortnite, DotA, League of Legends and basically any other competitive game has definitely dropped the pay-to-win scheme

    Overwatch is P2P to begin with, not to mention loot boxes they use to sustain themselves are being outlawed in a bunch of places,
    Fortnite has one game mode that is F2P, also, by the quick look on their site, if you want to play comp, you also get to pay for that too.

    Dota and LoL are both woefully much simpler games. Their overhead and production is not the same as S4 league.

    I'm quoting Shigeru Miyamoto because the legend himself said it the last month: "We're lucky to have such a giant market, so our thinking is, if we can deliver games at reasonable prices to as many people as possible, we will see big profits."

    Nintendo sells games.

    If you actually make "no-stats" a thing it will just become boring, limiting the player playstyle is what ruined games like PUBG, League of Legends or Super Smash Bros. Brawl

    How about you not use LoL to try to prove your point then?

    If you have already played the game, you know what to do to maximize profit. The thing is, the newbies don't so for them it looks like a p2w game.

    Not really the games fault. Not to mention people like the OP don't help. The game offers the things to get the stats, players assuming they don't exist is purely on them.

  • Good points. However, I believe as you also realize, the situation is complex.


    The way I see it, the game is a machine of connecting gears. It was designed to have all the connections. Now there is flexibility in the system, we can change some gears and even a few connected to each other, but we can't tear big parts up or it will stop working.


    That's why I don't think we should just remove stats: It would take some fun out of the game.

    If we make no-stats a perma option: Same problem, plus community segregation.


    Moving to cosmetics only is a nice wish but how can we do it? We can only change so much about the game.


    My solution is accessibility: We want to make FP more accessible to everyone. Unfortunately, putting out patches has been delayed way longer than we imagined and there is nothing to show at the moment.


    I'm quite swamped at the moment and it's hard to find time, but maybe later on we can make some more twitch sessions where we pick a topic and just talk with you guys about ideas.


    One thing I can promise you: Our vision for the game is to develop this game for the community, as the community wants. That doesn't necessarily mean we do whatever we see on forums of course, but we genuinely see this community, the team and the game as a family of sorts and we want to empower it.

    I hope this time next year we'll be talking very different and positive things : )

  • So the next patch has been delayed? :c

  • Good points. However, I believe as you also realize, the situation is complex.

    Maybe, maybe not. Who should know without any insight? o.o

    That's why I don't think we should just remove stats: It would take some fun out of the game.

    If we make no-stats a perma option: Same problem, plus community segregation.

    So people that have less fun in the game because of the stats should just leave right? o.o

    Oh so you did not consider us all at community in the first place. Sword only, Guns only, Unlimited, all different maps and modes, S5, weaponrestrictions (+s4db) is a segregated community overall. It is kinda easy. Whoever doesn’t want to play in such room doesn’t join it and end of the story. Don’t come here with „take some fun out of the game“ while people have clearly more fun in such rooms then in „normal“ rooms.

    My solution is accessibility: We want to make FP more accessible to everyone. Unfortunately, putting out patches has been delayed way longer than we imagined and there is nothing to show at the moment.

    If you want to make it fair how about you just send everyone every item in fp stats + max enchants + unique skills + full lvl 5 esper chips 10 times perm?...

    I mean you can't give us the option for a no-stats room whyever. So everyone can have the fun you are talking about. Would make the most people happy right?

    I'm quite swamped at the moment and it's hard to find time, but maybe later on we can make some more twitch sessions where we pick a topic and just talk with you guys about ideas.

    No. You already got kinda everything the community wants. But sorry some people are not part of the community almost forgot that…

  • The best option would be to remove all "normal" weapon stats, introduce the option to play PEN or AP mode (so basically if you are naked you still will have the same stats) and the only stats that stay are the enchants. So it will still kinda be p2w but not AS bad. Also there are still EsperChip stats, EsperChip skills, etc.

  • 6. "All room owners limit the spammy weapons" Yeah, cause no one ever complains about SD spam, or CS spam. It is totally about balance, not simply not being able to deal with things and banning them. Yeah, totally not... It isn't as if when a weapon is first introduced, it is banned by all those rooms.


    Heck, I'd bet they could literally nerf the rail gun so hard that it becomes useless and people would still ban it from their rooms cause that is the type of community we have.

    The difference is that the people I've seen complaining about CS or SD "spam" were amateurs, or played like amateurs (if by spam you mean mashing the same attack over and over again), since spamming is rarely the best course of action against good players as a CS or SD player (not saying that it is never the best course of action, but knowing when to do so requires good judgement).

    The reason why I despise some weapons and want them out of my games as an unlimited player is not necessarily that I can't deal with them, but because of the way they warp the game. Even if I win in the end, even if I score first, even if I score all 10 points for my team, I'm still going to be bored out of my mind if there are 5 snipers on both teams camping until the end of time.
    All of those bombs, boots, snipers, mines etc. make the possibility of direct engagements way less likely, or sum them up to one big hit, and those direct engagements are the meat of the game for a fragger such as myself.

    And then there's the fact that it has made team comp matter now. Having too many snipers, healers, not enough people with rifles or melee, those are now problems that can make it so a team has no chance to win, and it's not like people can switch weapons or character at any time to correct such problems.

  • My solution is accessibility: We want to make FP more accessible to everyone. Unfortunately, putting out patches has been delayed way longer than we imagined and there is nothing to show at the moment.

    Honestly thats going to be the best thing to do, removing stats will annoy people and keeping them too cash heavy annoys people


    Ultimately I'd say the best thing to do is work on S4, get a good grip on what people like, what works and what doesn't and then make an S4 League 2.

    The simple fact is, S4 is basically ancient in gaming terms and people very rarely want to play old games. Even moreso when they are multiplayer as most of the players left have been playing for ages and will stomp new players into the floor which then drives most of the few interested people out.