"How do you have so much fun?"

  • This was a question asked to me today. I feel it deserves a long answer:

    Most of us has been playing s4 league for a long time (2010 for me). We have seen things come and go and terrible things happen and good things happen. The community in it's whole is, for a lack of a better descriptor, "Dirt". And not everyone is happy with the games current situation. But I have learned to not worry about those things. I was competitive for a while, but I never let that get in the way of being friendly. When my team is losing because of a new player, I never Press Y because how would they learn. Sure the goal is to win, but if you cannot enjoy what you're doing in the first place, why are you trying to win? You get nothing for it honestly. It's just a number in a line of code on someone's server. It's about you :)! Go out there and do what you feel makes you enjoy the game. It's why no matter how garbage people say my tactics are (even though they work rather well), I don't change because it's how I enjoy the game. I have people I do call friends in a general sense and they even are nice enough to tolerate my NA lag. Make the game what you want to enjoy. No Unlimited? Make one! Let's all play together and laugh at things that are funny. So what if we lose, so what if we win. It's ok to be competitive, but don't lose your cool when you lose. It's a game... enjoy yourself! I am willing to be in a room with any player from any place so long as we all are legit. If you are new, I will teach you about my tactics ("Shields don't work against Cannonades"). If you are a long time player like me and you blow me up, I can assure you I'm chuckling and saying that's nice. Even when you are doing something unsportsmanlike I tend to still have a good time.


    Let's improve the community by extending our hands to new players and befriending other veterans. Go out there with the full intent of having fun and help each other bring more love in the community.

    <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

  • It can be toxic. The room limitations, kicking new players just for being new and inexperienced, ect. Stuff like that makes it harder for new players to get into the game so much. Especially with the mess they probably had to deal with in order to even have a game with us. D:

  • It can be toxic. The room limitations, kicking new players just for being new and inexperienced, ect. Stuff like that makes it harder for new players to get into the game so much. Especially with the mess they probably had to deal with in order to even have a game with us. D:

    I mean at least most ppl doesn't insult each other over gameplay (though they can set up a vk quietly and you will be out before you know what even happened).

  • I mean at least most ppl doesn't insult each other over gameplay (though they can set up a vk quietly and you will be out before you know what even happened).

    Aside from the vk bit that doesn't sound like the S4 Leauge that I know. Oh wait that's right, I mostly play OS League. (The OS community is by far more toxic).


    It can be toxic. The room limitations, kicking new players just for being new and inexperienced, ect. Stuff like that makes it harder for new players to get into the game so much. Especially with the mess they probably had to deal with in order to even have a game with us. D:

    It's really a shame more players don't go out of their way to train the new players. They're a very important part of keeping the game alive. If they quit because of ppl harshly kicking them just because of rank or inexperience all of the time then that's on the community. Wish people could see past their transparent win/losses that mean nothing in the end.

  • the problem is most of the players in the "rookie channel" is smurfs and they cant even be teached by the better players just because of the level restrictions. Currently, it is simply a bad system for the newbies since they will never get to learn b4 getting kicked out 24/7,get cursed at and more. pretty much sums up the actual problem.

  • It's really a shame more players don't go out of their way to train the new players. They're a very important part of keeping the game alive. If they quit because of ppl harshly kicking them just because of rank or inexperience all of the time then that's on the community. Wish people could see past their transparent win/losses that mean nothing in the end.

    In the old forum there was the idea of a teacher tag for some players and if I remember right they actually worked on that (Adiutor and Kriton?).

    Well that is the reason why I want the vk removed.


    The more important question for me is: Does Hella_Hell ever sleep or go to work? Nearly everytime the first one to respond on a thread :o

  • For the record, I only asked that because you mentioned you were having fun IN WARPSHIP (queue dramatic sound effect), the 2nd worst DM map in the game. I'm having fun as well in the game as a whole, there are some good players around that I love to hate, and I'm still experimenting with some stuff. As much as I feel dirty for using them, I feel like some F skills could turn the game on its head and I'm excited about trying to exploit their full potential.


    Although, as far as weapons go, it's become kind of stale. I have only one build that involves a melee that isn't dagger or boots that I consider viable. While it's true that I could just say "f*ck the meta" and just play whatever I want (which I already do to a small extent), the thing is, I hate losing. Not in a "I lost but still had fun" kind of way but in a "welp, I lost 8 - 3, and I didn't get to play the game very much" kind of way.

  • Oh it just sparked up a whole thing for me Nith, and I needed an excuse to post something.


    I tend to use my three favorites all the time but I like to mix it up with the Bloop set. I was chuckling to myself the whole time and started laughing when I surprised someone with an attack. Even made people rage quit.. gotta love taking in all that hate and converting it to more giggling x3.

  • Excuse the double post but I found a good example of both great players and bad ones:


    So I was in a TD (station 2) and we had this one amateur. He was sporting a Sentry, Airgun, and Turret all pen based. We were not doing so well, our offense wasnt very strong and the opposing defense was Very strong and skilled. The opposing offense was great too so it was difficult to repel and defend all the time, but this little amateur with basic skills managed to repel wave after wave untill finally someone gets him and they score. It was quite impressive to me. A particular player began to set up a kick vote saying he was AFK. A couple of people pressed Y but never enough to kick him. Someone on the other team asked why the guy is being VK'd and the player responsible says he's AFK. Everyone else actually disagreed even said he's doing a good job. The amateur was worried about being kicked and the players along with myself assured him we will not allow someone to kick him just because he is newer and lesser experienced.

    The player was using team chat to insult him and tell him to leave and when he finally gave in he RQ, leaving the amateur to play in peace. We did not win that match but we as in the rest of the room definately made that new player feel welcome and even tried to help him on his way. Gods be with ye, -AimSeeker.

  • Community is toxic but hey...welcome to the internet. From youtube comments to playing COD on my playsation 3/4 its all the same. Dont really care anymore. As for s4...I only have fun when i win. So yeah some people consider that a toxic mentality in itself but hey what can ya do😭

  • Excuse the double post but I found a good example of both great players and bad ones:


    So I was in a TD (station 2) and we had this one amateur. He was sporting a Sentry, Airgun, and Turret all pen based. We were not doing so well, our offense wasnt very strong and the opposing defense was Very strong and skilled. The opposing offense was great too so it was difficult to repel and defend all the time, but this little amateur with basic skills managed to repel wave after wave untill finally someone gets him and they score. It was quite impressive to me. A particular player began to set up a kick vote saying he was AFK. A couple of people pressed Y but never enough to kick him. Someone on the other team asked why the guy is being VK'd and the player responsible says he's AFK. Everyone else actually disagreed even said he's doing a good job. The amateur was worried about being kicked and the players along with myself assured him we will not allow someone to kick him just because he is newer and lesser experienced.

    The player was using team chat to insult him and tell him to leave and when he finally gave in he RQ, leaving the amateur to play in peace. We did not win that match but we as in the rest of the room definately made that new player feel welcome and even tried to help him on his way. Gods be with ye, -AimSeeker.

    That one case aside, amateurs shifting the power balance and leading to one-sided game is an actual issue that should be addressed (although of course kicking them or pressuring them into leaving is the worst thing that anyone can do in that situation).


    There are 3 things that could be done.

    A: When that happens people on the enemy team could stop tryharding with prems, F skills, tier 1 weapons and whatnot. It's what I've been doing for a while. But then again, people seem to love their wins easy so it's unlikely.

    B: The level and channel system could be reworked so that amateurs have a place where they can go that is free from scary S4s. I know that it's technically the case already, but at the same time not really, people get out of the beginner channel way too soon. They should be able to stay in there for way longer, even if they're not forced to.

    C: There could be an option to rebalance teams during the match. Like, a vote that if enough people press y shuffles the teams based on the usual algorythm and how well they are presently doing. It's been working alright in TF2 so far, or so I've heard.

  • I agree with you that kicking them is not the way. But I think that the only way to learn how to play is having the others at their true potential, if someone removes his fp weapons or costumes it seems like it's disrespecting the other player (and I am not saying that you can't play without costumes or with these ap weapons, I just mean when the other person can't even hit you). This is my opinion of course, you can see it from a different point of view.

  • I agree with you that kicking them is not the way. But I think that the only way to learn how to play is having the others at their true potential, if someone removes his fp weapons or costumes it seems like it's disrespecting the other player. This is my opinion of course, you can see it form a different point of view.

    I've heard that a lot, and it goes against everything I know about game design and learning new skills. Even extremely hard games have a difficulty curve (and don't hit you with the hardest difficulty all of a sudden), and nobody starts to play the piano on absurdly difficult pieces. Sports teachers don't go all out against their students, and I wasn't taught quantum physics in middle school. It's not insulting, it's just appropriate.


    Playing against people who have thousands of hours of playtime under their belts and have end game gear BS is too much to ask to people who comparatively have just started the game. It scares people away from the game. On the other hand, there's a lot to learn from playing against people who are about as good as you (sometimes worse, sometimes better), and it feels more fair and fun.


    And, what about those who win without any challenge, is it really fun for them? Are they going to get any better from it?

  • I was raised in s4 under the same fires this generation of newbies are playing in, well we didn't have chip skills or enchanting. But I fought with players far superior to me in power and skill and I developed from that. That being said, I do fight in a way to equate a newer player. I won't perch somewhere where I can just relax and kill them. I go to them and fight them close and let them learn how to jump around, kind of on the spot training for them. Always makes me happy to see them improve fast. And when they get better I kick it up a notch so they have a new plateau to reach. If they are ungrateful, salty, and have a potty mouth I tend to go all out and make them RQ against the full girth of my fighting style x3 but also mention they should be more respectful.

  • I've heard that a lot, and it goes against everything I know about game design and learning new skills. Even extremely hard games have a difficulty curve (and don't hit you with the hardest difficulty all of a sudden), and nobody starts to play the piano on absurdly difficult pieces. Sports teachers don't go all out against their students, and I wasn't taught quantum physics in middle school. It's not insulting, it's just appropriate.


    Playing against people who have thousands of hours of playtime under their belts and have end game gear BS is too much to ask to people who comparatively have just started the game. It scares people away from the game. On the other hand, there's a lot to learn from playing against people who are about as good as you (sometimes worse, sometimes better), and it feels more fair and fun.


    And, what about those who win without any challenge, is it really fun for them? Are they going to get any better from it?

    You have a point on there, and I can't argue in that with you. I probably think that way because I have always liked to challenge myself, but it's a bit unrealistic xDD, gotta admit that.

  • i like your way of teaching Mama, and i think you getting it right.

    I'm personally also helping new ppl when it's about rushing (i'm not a pro of it but still i know the mains things.

    I'm also getting a lot of PM from olders players who wants to start air hugging.

    In both cases if ppl are nice it's always a pleasure to help them improve themself.


    + We really need more players, i personally feel like the players who stayed are all bad at s4. Like since 2y i never said 'Hey this player is really good, i could improve myself by playing with him'. So i have this hope that in the few news players who're coming some of them may become op at s4 so I can get nice games like in old days

  • I think the reason why the new players even flock to CPDnoF is because the other players embed it into their minds that it's the only "skillful" way to play. I disagree with that mind set though. How can one improve if they stick to limitations other people either force on them or manipulatively mold them into liking? Only by learning and understanding how all of the weapons work can you know their pros and cons, strengths weaknesses etc.


    By choosing to only stick to those limitations they only learn some of the game, and when some alien setup beats their setup easy (not because the setup is op, but because the other setup has advantages over theirs), they choose to complain because they deny the existence of anything outside of their setup. I think that's the problem. I've seen several new players over the years say "S4 ranks shouldn't use this, S4 ranks shouldn't use that", and it's usually anything outside of CPD they say such things about.


    We have many smurfs on the rookie channel, and I believe they're responsible for introducing them to these mindset. Veteran players who cannot adapt to the present version of the game shouldn't be forcing their views on newer players, and I wish they wouldn't make new accs to play on Beginner. But what can we do about it?


    We're not in 2008 anymore...but 2018.

  • Even I visit the beginner channel now and then. Mostly to see how well they got it.. But I use my usual set up and I don't force it down anyone's throat. I get plenty of complaints though lol. Especially from players with illegitimate gear and thought it was impossible to lose to a +1 weaponset x3. New players have it rough in terms of gameplay, but AP and FP they had it way better than we did when we were beginners.

  • When I started playing S4, people told me regularly I was pay2win for playing with the Dha-41 FP SMGs, that I got from I's capsules. My clothes were pen stated. I think this illustrates the landscape in which I started playing. I remember clearly a lot of people being naked, as well as a lot of people using pen clothes. They outnumbered people with FP sets by a comfortable margin even in the Free channel (the one with no limitations). There were a number of people making loads of new accounts to get the combi sets, which were the best you could aim for as a free2play player (aside from the fumbi shop but it was extremely hard to get permanent better than pen stats items). Sets and capsules and FP didn't start getting thrown around until the Alice season, with extremely rewarding events (and boosters the same year think?).


    Clearly I didn't have it as rough at you, and I'm doing fine. A lot of people I started playing with have played the game for a long time, and have become fully accomplished and skilled players and some of them are still around (probably more than I'd be able to recall due to all of the name changes).


    If you ask me, I was lucky to get into the game when it was that way, and there's a good chance that I would have been put off by the game as it is now. I've seen that happen, I've seen a player who genuinely liked the game but ended up giving up due to being overwhelmed by the amount of dedication, time and/or money they'd have to put in the game in order to simply stop feeling like dead weight.


    Nowadays, even managing one's inventory is complicated to a new player, and there's nothing out there that explains how to manage it effectively. Like, the boosters, the chips, the enchants, the crafting system, when to keep capsules, when to open them with a booster, should you spend your pen on trying to get a FP set or in the random shop? Which chips are the best when low on budget, you get what I mean. You might think it's easy, but I've seen so many new players get it wrong.

  • That's true. Alot of players who are legitimately new do not understand how to manage their pen. I keep a PEN stat version of my set on the side in case I want to use it and it only reduces my KDR slightly since my max HP is only 108 instead of 135/140. I feel that it's important to know how to use the lower stat weapon as much as the FP version. While FP can help you with the extra damage and it's buffs, it's useless if you can't hit with it. I kept my first Fumbi Perm, a +8% Cannonade. Of course back then damage was labeled differently. It was a +5 back when Force Packs gave +7.

    I have been thouroughly beaten by pen only users before and I have done the same to other FP users. It's about finding your thing and refining it. Been doing the same tactics since I was a Rookie, I just got a little better at it over the years xD

  • I still remember the time i was forced out of the beginner channel and into the unlimited ones, i was getting instantly kicked from almost every room, legit made me quit the game for a few weeks. i Still see it happening these days, to a lesser extent, but a some people are very elitist and if you are being useless in a otherwise competitive game you are getting kicked with no remorse.


    Foxtailgirl I get the reasoning too, you want to have a competitive team but i cant help to feel bad for new players playing now, or the new players to come.

  • I won't kick any newbies >: Some of them are realllllly nice too.

    It's sad that the most of the players have the urge to kick newbies just because they are not that good. And then there are a few who are wondering that there are so less players (especially newbies): they get kicked most of the time and don't have any fun.

  • People should fill their rooms and then set a password to it if they want a tryhard match without having to kick anyone, sadly this game has a load of crashes so if someone crashes they would have an empty spot.


    I'd consider opening a "tryhard" channel for these players (Clan channel is pretty much dead due to the way it works, people keep doing CWs in the normal channel)


    And theres another solution that i'd like and probably Hella_Hell too, it would be adding a Matchmaking system where you can search rooms (both for unlimited and limited modes) with a stacked team, or not. At first i wasn't really into the idea of s4 working via matchmaking but nowdays, i kinda see why Hella would want one. Of course we would keep the normal system about creating rooms, but i would force such to be privated.


    I'd develop and add the matchmaking system for a couple of weeks for testing and then make a final decision with the community, for some reason, i believe S4 would had worked better if it was based on matchmaking since it started.


    Yeah sure, i'll miss custom rules and whatnot but i think that not knowing who the enemies are and which map i'm getting into right before the match starts would make it more exciting.

  • I agree with you that kicking them is not the way. But I think that the only way to learn how to play is having the others at their true potential, if someone removes his fp weapons or costumes it seems like it's disrespecting the other player (and I am not saying that you can't play without costumes or with these ap weapons, I just mean when the other person can't even hit you). This is my opinion of course, you can see it from a different point of view.

    Exactly...

  • And theres another solution that i'd like and probably Hella_Hell too, it would be adding a Matchmaking system where you can search rooms (both for unlimited and limited modes) with a stacked team, or not. At first i wasn't really into the idea of s4 working via matchmaking but nowdays, i kinda see why Hella would want one. Of course we would keep the normal system about creating rooms, but i would force such to be privated.

    If both systems coexists (which is probably the best way to go without pissing off those who don't want it) there should be some extra reward to encourage the use of it so most ppl can move to the new system. Even is someone decide to farm it, they will have to deal with the rest of the ppl who are actually playing since there will be no room titles like "jump room" etc.

  • I understand why some people would want matchmaking, but the issue with matchmaking is that suddenly nobody is held accountable for their actions. What are people going to do if you decide to no sit, force lag and just be absolutely cancerous with your choice of weapons?


    Then there's also the fact that over the years, many people have developed different expectations on how they want their games to be. How many players in every match, which weapons are banned, which stats are allowed, do we start the game as soon as there are two players or do we wait for more?


    And finally, there's the issue of team balance, and what to do with stackers. I mean, it's already an issue, I get a lot of non-games because the teams are so disparate that it's either unwinnable or so easy that I could fall asleep on my keyboard. But at least, I do have some control as the RM (shuffle) or as a player (going with the team that needs help the most). As for stackers, well if they play against random people who never asked to play against stackers, it's hardly fair, and if they can only play against other stackers, they're most likely going to have trouble finding games on their skill level.


    I'll trust matchmaking when I don't need to shuffle 3 times to try to make teams about even, and when it's not possible for a single player to show up and ruin a game (for balance reasons and lack of fairplay).


    And, just to be clear. It's either matchmaking or custom games. Not both. Not in a game where there aren't that many people playing. Nothing good will come out of dividing the community more than it already has been. And by that I mean, either of two things are likely to happen happen: -people have trouble finding games because the player pool is half what it currently is, and what it currently is isn't the best it's ever been. -not enough people like matchmaking so it becomes abandoned and it has just been a waste of time for the devs.

  • I understand why some people would want matchmaking, but the issue with matchmaking is that suddenly nobody is held accountable for their actions. What are people going to do if you decide to no sit, force lag and just be absolutely cancerous with your choice of weapons?

    It is not competitive mode so it won't make much of a difference. Also you are not supposed to kick for not sitting anyway.

    Then there's also the fact that over the years, many people have developed different expectations on how they want their games to be. How many players in every match, which weapons are banned, which stats are allowed, do we start the game as soon as there are two players or do we wait for more?

    That is why something to encourage the use of this system has to be made like special rewards that can be earned only there.

    Even though some ppl may like playing with limits, it is actually hurting the game in a long run so the focus should be on reducing the number of these kind of rooms (without removing them directly).

    And finally, there's the issue of team balance, and what to do with stackers. I mean, it's already an issue, I get a lot of non-games because the teams are so disparate that it's either unwinnable or so easy that I could fall asleep on my keyboard. But at least, I do have some control as the RM (shuffle) or as a player (going with the team that needs help the most). As for stackers, well if they play against random people who never asked to play against stackers, it's hardly fair, and if they can only play against other stackers, they're most likely going to have trouble finding games on their skill level.

    if you look at the unlimited room, you already don't have much of a choice in which room to enter. So unbalanced matches are already a thing but something should be done against stacking.

    I'll trust matchmaking when I don't need to shuffle 3 times to try to make teams about even, and when it's not possible for a single player to show up and ruin a game (for balance reasons and lack of fairplay).

    I doubt it can be improved at this point considering ton of ppl are just using alt accounts anyway.

    And, just to be clear. It's either matchmaking or custom games. Not both. Not in a game where there aren't that many people playing. Nothing good will come out of dividing the community more than it already has been. And by that I mean, either of two things are likely to happen happen: -people have trouble finding games because the player pool is half what it currently is, and what it currently is isn't the best it's ever been. -not enough people like matchmaking so it becomes abandoned and it has just been a waste of time for the devs.

    The goal is not to have both but to have a transition from rooms to matchmaking until the matchmaking becomes the main mode.

    Lets Face it. Having 10 rooms with 1 guy waiting there for 30 min is just not healthy for the game.

  • The goal is not to have both but to have a transition from rooms to matchmaking until the matchmaking becomes the main mode.

    Lets Face it. Having 10 rooms with 1 guy waiting there for 30 min is just not healthy for the game.

    I don't see how a transition is possible. People will always gravitate towards where most people are, since they want to play above anything else.
    Giving an incentive to try the new thing is a good idea, but it shouldn't last too long (and definitely not indefinitely) since it would mean matchmaking could get away with huge flaws and still people would play it for the rewards.


    And that guy that's waiting there for 30 minutes is probably trying to get a room going even as there are other rooms open with more people inside, or is trying to play a mode that's unpopular, and if it's the latter then matchmaking doesn't solve anything. I've never seen a matchmaking system that allows unpopular modes or maps to be played without being imposed on people who don't want them (and currently, I think it would hurt the game more than anything to force sta-2 players to play poorly designed maps, let alone poorly designed modes).


    The closest a game has ever been to achieve that from my experience is Titanfall 2. But it hasn't, despite its larger player base.

    In TF2 you can queue for several modes at once and it puts you in games for any of those modes.

    Thing is, the only mode I liked in that game was Pilot VS Pilot, and I had to wait sometimes 30 minutes to get a game, sometimes even an hour, at which point I'd just give up (that's the reason why I stopped playing). The reason for that wasn't necessarily that there weren't enough players connected that were interested in PvP to get a full game at the same time, but rather that if they were also willing to play Attrition, they'd get pulled into a game of Attrition long before there were enough PvP players to make a game.


    So there's a good chance that a matchmaking system is going to make it even harder for unpopular modes to be played, unless it's like in Overwatch, a forced map/mode rotation which would be a disaster in S4 league given how bad certain maps and certain modes are (I've never had fun in Ice Square in my entire life).


    It is not competitive mode so it won't make much of a difference.

    Yes it does. Competitive or not, I want to have fun playing and I have fun playing when the game is fair. And who said I'm not supposed to kick for not sitting? I consider it to be bad manners, and it's on the list for vote kick reasons.

    if you look at the unlimited room, you already don't have much of a choice in which room to enter. So unbalanced matches are already a thing

    I can mitigate that by switching team myself between matches or shuffling/asking for a shuffle, like I said. It's not something that is possible with traditional matchmaking. I'm not saying they don't exist, but there is a good chance that matchmaking will make it worse.

  • Well, I can tell you for sure that the game will never get new players with the current room system.

    People use rules that new players don't understand and they also get kicked just for being bad.