All about melee weapons | Statistics | Data | Rebalance discussion

  • It was a little usefull or curious for you? 22

    1. Yes (11) 50%
    2. No (7) 32%
    3. Maybe (4) 18%

    Hi. This is a final comparision of sword weapons. All depends mainly on players skills but... some weapons are so overpowered that even a weak player is able to easy kill a strong player by a simply spamming. But some weapons are also wrongfully underpowered.


    What is OP and what is UP? You should judge it by yourself.


    I created this post in order to:

    1. Undestand by players how the weapons works.

    2. Discussion about weapon's rebalance.


    My ratio is very simply:

    (Damage x Range / Time of attack)

    Damage: Standard damage without players bonuses.

    I set up a chance for crytical to about 30% so Damage = 0,7*Normal Damage + 0,3*Crytical Damage. I set up also additional bonus for blow effect (Wall hit).

    Range: Max range to hit the player includes dash range. Height and Width was not included.

    Time: Time of attack included all the delays.



    Let's start from overall without any details. Just ratio.

    LJ7wbPf.png

    Yellow = SP usage


    The strongest attacks are Dagger's dash and sigma's SP combo. Both can be easily be blocked by Counter guard. But what if no one has the counter?

    Sigma has many restriction: When you use it you can't change weapon, run and dodge. It also consumes your SP.

    Dagger has any restriction and can deal up to 62,5 damage from 2000 range and 138 damage from 500 range.

    Is Dagger overpowered? You should judge.


    The weakest attacks are Sigma's Strong and Jump Attack, Plasma's Jump attack, Vital shock's Jump attack, Iron Boots' Combo and Bat whirlwind.

    Plasma's and Fist's Jumps aren't weak. It deals less damage but it gives a stun which is very powerfull but can't be easily calculated.

    Sigma's attacks are weak but SP attacks are powerfull.

    Iron Boots combo is very weak. Its just a too much nerfed attack. Iron boots was very powerfull in past and developers makes it weaker. In case of that attack - too much weak.


    About nerfing: Counter in past was dealing 45 damage in jump and strong attacks. Boots and Breaker was dealing 45 damage too. Half of weapons was dealing 45 damage in past.

    But only counter was nerfed to 30 damage. Its little funny.


    After Iron Boots' rebalance fail the new weapon - Vital Shock was created to be a weak weapon. I would say - too weak and it should be nerfed. Why?

    Plasma's weak attack can deal 17 damage. Identical but Vital Shock's attack can deal only 10 damage. Similar case in the Jump attack.

    Vital shock's strong attack deal only 20 damages and it consumes SP! It also has a sensivity of mouse restrictions. Why dagger's dash attack do not consume SP but vital's strong did?


    ***Time for details***


    I added also a Duel Ratio. It tell how strong is weapon when a enemy expect the attack.

    What's the difference beetwen Duel and Normal Ratio?

    Duel Ratio includes FFF (Fast Fingers First factor).


    FFF tells about a chance to succesfully attack when both players are attacking in the same time. More FFF - less chance to being canceled by a simply weak attack from any weapon.

    FFF = Time to deal damage / 240ms (The average time to deal damage)


    WEAK ATTACKS

    zoevZ1r.png

    D3LJtFq.png


    How to read this?

    Some attacks has a damage before and after dash

    Example: Twin Blade deals 15 damage before dash and 30 after dash.

    Dash are often long (1000-2000 range).


    STRONG ATTACKS

    u64bJN3.png


    JUMP ATTACKS

    Fh4W1eW.png


    SPECIAL ATTACKS

    LPMLXH0.png

    iWjwJmA.png




    FAQ

    Q. How?

    A. Just lua files + some checking on training mode


    Q. What about delay?

    A. All attacks have different delay times. I added delay time only to the last combo attack.

    If you will attack 1 or 2 times and stop there will be also delay time (but shorter than after full 3-4 combo).


    Q. What about blow?

    A. Blow effect can throw player to the wall. Hitting the wall = additional 15 damage. I set up a chance for hit wall to about 30% so I decided to add +5 damage to all attacks with blow effect.


    Note: Iron Boots' dash has 3xBlow effect so it can gives you additional 45 damage if you will hit close and next to the wall. Also Sigma Blade (SP) has blow effect in each combo attack. All the rest of weapons has blow effect only in the last combo.


    Q. How to makes crytical hit?

    A. In Twin Blade, Katana and Sigma there is random chance for crytical: TB - 20%, Sigma - 10%, Katana - 30%.

    In rest weapon you have to properly aim to activate crytical hit.

  • I guess you are talkin about "sword only" mode and because the way S4 League is used to be played is "unlimited" you should judge the weapons (also) for "unlimited". Starting a rebalance discussion without considering "unlimited" is pointless.


    Nice statistics tho. Must have been much work if you did it.

  • Only way to rebalance in 100% is:

    Implement a program inside S4 league which will collect data about:

    -Kill/death with each weapon

    -% of hits/miss of each attack

    -% of kills of each attack


    If kill/death with individual weapon is too high or too low we analize individual attacks:

    -Too much/too less hit chance - we decrease/increase range

    -Too much/too less kills - decrease/increase damage

  • I think that we should rebalance breaker like this:

    Normal attack: 60 ---> 45 (like before)

    Jump attack: 45 ---> 20 + Stun 0,5-2s depends of range (plasma have 1s-3,5s) + SP consume (20-30 per attack)


    Why stun should be shorter than plasma's stun?

    Plasma's jump attack - about 500ms + 1000ms delay

    Breaker's jump attack - about 300 ms + 550ms delay


    Or we can add blow because it's prevents spam.


    Hm... about daggers. I don't know propably I would change 50/25/63 to 50/25/25 to make 100 damage from very close and only 25 damage from very far away.

  • for swords : br's normal/jump atk animation delay increase,hitscan need to be sync'd with animation that's showing up,change cs name to block wallpush stunning sword,dagger special attack animation/hitbox fixing,cs needs delay on reusing revenge if the name doesnt get changed.

    for guns : bombs critical hit change to unable to crit/certain way of getting critical hits instead of it being random at all times,railgun attack cd increase,remove random crits from spark rifle,increase height of the character of those who are using sharpshooter while scoped(currently its basicly a few pixels being shown if the player who is using sharpshooter is scoping behind the walls to the side of the spawn of st2),decrease sp given by mk2 heal or critical heals does not give extra sp,if railgun attack cd doesnt go through,reduce canon charge attack time.

    for system : add specific graphic settings that allows removal of unwanted effects,increase transparency of fumbi's beam on td mode,removal of wallshooting (because it is just unreasonable for a player to be basically invulnerable while dealing damage to the opponent,i dont mind players taking advantage of being able to see the opponent through walls,being able to shoot through it just makes no sense at all),adding detection to macro users.

  • Remove the 1 second CD on CS/IB jump attack. Is there any real reason for the CD to be there? It's not like you can jump spam these attacks as fast as a BR user can.

  • I have only seen one person using vital shock on a somewhat good level and it can be OP, but there are much better swords to play with, vital isnt a good option really.

    My definition of OP weapon:

    When player with less skills can make such many damage by just spamming or using basic tricks and he is dangerous even for more skilled players with weaker weapons.

  • a strong weapon becomes strong with its user, if you master a weapon its strong for you and scary for others, yea there are weapons that are easier to learn than others but "stronger" weapons on weaker hands will always be the underdog, keep it in mind

  • Numbers itself doesn't mean anything, you can have an one shot weapon on your hand but if you can't use it, there's no point in it. The same applies for each weapon itself. There will never be a true balance in a game. You can't also compare two entirely different weapons, dagger and vital shock, in your case, damage-wise. Different weapons, different movesets, different ranges, different methods, different situations to use and not use. What makes a weapon overpowered is what they have to offer, such as boots' dash in TD and what not but even then that consumes alot of SP, so.

  • Numbers itself doesn't mean anything, you can have an one shot weapon on your hand but if you can't use it, there's no point in it. The same applies for each weapon itself. There will never be a true balance in a game. You can't also compare two entirely different weapons, dagger and vital shock, in your case, damage-wise. Different weapons, different movesets, different ranges, different methods, different situations to use and not use. What makes a weapon overpowered is what they have to offer, such as boots' dash in TD and what not but even then that consumes alot of SP, so.

    Hit the dagger in the group of players and do the same with vital.

  • Hit the dagger in the group of players and do the same with vital.

    Accomplished, still lowered and set up kills for my mates, irrelevant. Vital does 77 hp per dash, should you actually hit it entirely, however there's one thing that makes it stand and strong, and that's the fact it's difficult to escape unless the person has a macro with cs revenge. Should you buff that on vital shock, it will easy surpass any weapon, since all you would need is a normal cut/heavy and then the Vital dash and that's one kill right there.


    Additional information: the used vital shock is a 1% vital shock, full dash+ hits itself against a 14% defense with +5% melee defense from solid and the additional defense from the PET itself, no additional enchants.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Hatred: Additional information ().

  • Hit the dagger in the group of players and do the same with vital.

    Yeah do the same with Vital, then all your mates can gang stab the person you're holding with their Daggers. : ^ )


    Edit: Vital's one of the only team based melee weapon we have. It's meant to be used as an assist weapon. Though in the right hands it can still be dangerous.

  • Very well said, was pointing it out earlier the same thing!

    OK. But who is more dangerous? Good player with vital or good player with boots or anything?


    In most of 1v1 the Boots player will win even if both players are good.


    Why? Damages. Boots can kill easily by a few hits And it has very high range.


    Vital is very low damage and has very low range. You have to have very high precision if you want to be better with this.

  • Heh, never thought of the boots as a good weapon. The only thing they're good at is giving you that burst of speed that makes everyone rage when you score a TD thanks to them. C;